fern wrote:Of course....but then, without ANY kind of fundamental non engine woud exist, any about nothing. You always make use of some previous ground to do anything, isnt it?
F
Fern, you should be flattered. He is saying your works are worthy of being accused of plagiarizing Shakespeare!
You're out of your element here. Surely you meant to say Cervantes. But you can't improve upon Cervantes (nor Shakespeare).
Not really. I read Cervantes (and Borges BTW), but Billy is still Billy, and even the South Americans concur. They will argue about the best Spanish language writer (or Portuguese), but not that Shakespeare is best, removing the language dispute. It is rather remarkable that a single author, one of the earliest in Modern English, is still so far above in terms of overall quality and sheer volume. Still, building on him is not just about writing nice things, but also establishing techniques and devices, just as Moliere is the father of comedy.
But this doesn't rise to plagiarism or improve upon the masters. It's one thing to incorporate principles and devices to one's own vernacular but quite another to copy text verbatim, which is the only intersection between your analogy and the case at hand. Steal but one paragraph without a footnote and the stain of plagiarism will be difficult to remove. How much more if it be many paragraphs and critical components of the plot!
Improve upon the masters? I rather think Rybka is an improvement. In any case, your comment said nothing about improvement.
Copy a paragraph? Happens all the time, though one can argue that when quoting Billy or a past great, it is public domain.
Copy critical components of the plot??? Well, I'm more inclined to ask which plot you can claim is original. There is a saying in literature that there is no such thing as an original story; all that changes is the telling.
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."
fern wrote:Of course....but then, without ANY kind of fundamental non engine woud exist, any about nothing. You always make use of some previous ground to do anything, isnt it?
F
Fern, you should be flattered. He is saying your works are worthy of being accused of plagiarizing Shakespeare!
You're out of your element here. Surely you meant to say Cervantes. But you can't improve upon Cervantes (nor Shakespeare).
Not really. I read Cervantes (and Borges BTW), but Billy is still Billy, and even the South Americans concur. They will argue about the best Spanish language writer (or Portuguese), but not that Shakespeare is best, removing the language dispute. It is rather remarkable that a single author, one of the earliest in Modern English, is still so far above in terms of overall quality and sheer volume. Still, building on him is not just about writing nice things, but also establishing techniques and devices, just as Moliere is the father of comedy.
But this doesn't rise to plagiarism or improve upon the masters. It's one thing to incorporate principles and devices to one's own vernacular but quite another to copy text verbatim, which is the only intersection between your analogy and the case at hand. Steal but one paragraph without a footnote and the stain of plagiarism will be difficult to remove. How much more if it be many paragraphs and critical components of the plot!
Improve upon the masters? I rather think Rybka is an improvement. In any case, your comment said nothing about improvement.
Copy a paragraph? Happens all the time, though one can argue that when quoting Billy or a past great, it is public domain.
Copy critical components of the plot??? Well, I'm more inclined to ask which plot you can claim is original. There is a saying in literature that there is no such thing as an original story; all that changes is the telling.
i plus 1000 this. to me it relates to film. think about all the different ways basic plots have been 'told' in movies. it's in the directors eyes. it's sad to me that anyone cares so much about who does what with publically available chess code. houdart, vas, they're doing the same thing (taking public code & improving it). hats off to both of them.
a great example btw is breathless. tarantino, a 'hack' according to some, prefers the latter version w/ richard gere. if u have netflix, watch them both. they're both (imo) amazing. but completely different. this is getting way off topic so i'll stop but i encourage ppl to watch these films. same plot, different implementation.
fern wrote:Of course....but then, without ANY kind of fundamental non engine woud exist, any about nothing. You always make use of some previous ground to do anything, isnt it?
F
Fern, you should be flattered. He is saying your works are worthy of being accused of plagiarizing Shakespeare!
You're out of your element here. Surely you meant to say Cervantes. But you can't improve upon Cervantes (nor Shakespeare).
Not really. I read Cervantes (and Borges BTW), but Billy is still Billy, and even the South Americans concur. They will argue about the best Spanish language writer (or Portuguese), but not that Shakespeare is best, removing the language dispute. It is rather remarkable that a single author, one of the earliest in Modern English, is still so far above in terms of overall quality and sheer volume. Still, building on him is not just about writing nice things, but also establishing techniques and devices, just as Moliere is the father of comedy.
But this doesn't rise to plagiarism or improve upon the masters. It's one thing to incorporate principles and devices to one's own vernacular but quite another to copy text verbatim, which is the only intersection between your analogy and the case at hand. Steal but one paragraph without a footnote and the stain of plagiarism will be difficult to remove. How much more if it be many paragraphs and critical components of the plot!
Improve upon the masters? I rather think Rybka is an improvement. In any case, your comment said nothing about improvement.
I said "but you can't improve upon Cervantes..." while Rybka did improve upon Fruit. The comparison was intended to show your analogy as not supporting your point.
Albert Silver wrote:Copy a paragraph? Happens all the time, though one can argue that when quoting Billy or a past great, it is public domain.
It depends, and my argument assumes the applicable case where it's a bad thing.
Albert Silver wrote:Copy critical components of the plot??? Well, I'm more inclined to ask which plot you can claim is original. There is a saying in literature that there is no such thing as an original story; all that changes is the telling.
In a chess program, correct tuning is a needle in a haystack of possibilities. The only way to benefit right away is to copy lock stock and barrel the exact formulae in exact juxtaposition. Perhaps "plot" is not the right word then.
fern wrote:Of course....but then, without ANY kind of fundamental non engine woud exist, any about nothing. You always make use of some previous ground to do anything, isnt it?
F
Fern, you should be flattered. He is saying your works are worthy of being accused of plagiarizing Shakespeare!
You're out of your element here. Surely you meant to say Cervantes. But you can't improve upon Cervantes (nor Shakespeare).
Not really. I read Cervantes (and Borges BTW), but Billy is still Billy, and even the South Americans concur. They will argue about the best Spanish language writer (or Portuguese), but not that Shakespeare is best, removing the language dispute. It is rather remarkable that a single author, one of the earliest in Modern English, is still so far above in terms of overall quality and sheer volume. Still, building on him is not just about writing nice things, but also establishing techniques and devices, just as Moliere is the father of comedy.
But this doesn't rise to plagiarism or improve upon the masters. It's one thing to incorporate principles and devices to one's own vernacular but quite another to copy text verbatim, which is the only intersection between your analogy and the case at hand. Steal but one paragraph without a footnote and the stain of plagiarism will be difficult to remove. How much more if it be many paragraphs and critical components of the plot!
Improve upon the masters? I rather think Rybka is an improvement. In any case, your comment said nothing about improvement.
Copy a paragraph? Happens all the time, though one can argue that when quoting Billy or a past great, it is public domain.
Copy critical components of the plot??? Well, I'm more inclined to ask which plot you can claim is original. There is a saying in literature that there is no such thing as an original story; all that changes is the telling.
i plus 1000 this. to me it relates to film. think about all the different ways basic plots have been 'told' in movies. it's in the directors eyes. it's sad to me that anyone cares so much about who does what with publically available chess code. houdart, vas, they're doing the same thing (taking public code & improving it). hats off to both of them.
The difference is Vas is selling the code. No kudos for that.
excluding the Engine Author under examination .. we have all but one World Champion engine author since 1992 signing the letter
it should be remembered that these men were fierce competitors for many years ..so seeing them all agree to the notion that Rybka is an unauthorized Fruit derivative is quite astonishing and remarkable
Of course many other highly respected and talented Engine authors also signed the letter..some of whom might have been World Champions themselves if not losing to the engine in question or deciding not to even compete entirely in the ICGA World Championships given the participation of the allegedly illegally derived engine
Bob Hyatt ..a World Champion author himself of course did not sign as he is on the panel invested with making a determination on the derivative issue
i think this is unprecedented in the history of competitive sport Regards
Steve
i guess it pays to keep checking back and re-read the open letter
it seems to be a work in progress with now YET ANOTHER World Champion signing on
Shay Bushinksy..Co-Author of Junior
fern wrote:Of course....but then, without ANY kind of fundamental non engine woud exist, any about nothing. You always make use of some previous ground to do anything, isnt it?
F
Fern, you should be flattered. He is saying your works are worthy of being accused of plagiarizing Shakespeare!
You're out of your element here. Surely you meant to say Cervantes. But you can't improve upon Cervantes (nor Shakespeare).
Not really. I read Cervantes (and Borges BTW), but Billy is still Billy, and even the South Americans concur. They will argue about the best Spanish language writer (or Portuguese), but not that Shakespeare is best, removing the language dispute. It is rather remarkable that a single author, one of the earliest in Modern English, is still so far above in terms of overall quality and sheer volume. Still, building on him is not just about writing nice things, but also establishing techniques and devices, just as Moliere is the father of comedy.
But this doesn't rise to plagiarism or improve upon the masters. It's one thing to incorporate principles and devices to one's own vernacular but quite another to copy text verbatim, which is the only intersection between your analogy and the case at hand. Steal but one paragraph without a footnote and the stain of plagiarism will be difficult to remove. How much more if it be many paragraphs and critical components of the plot!
Improve upon the masters? I rather think Rybka is an improvement. In any case, your comment said nothing about improvement.
Copy a paragraph? Happens all the time, though one can argue that when quoting Billy or a past great, it is public domain.
Copy critical components of the plot??? Well, I'm more inclined to ask which plot you can claim is original. There is a saying in literature that there is no such thing as an original story; all that changes is the telling.
i plus 1000 this. to me it relates to film. think about all the different ways basic plots have been 'told' in movies. it's in the directors eyes. it's sad to me that anyone cares so much about who does what with publically available chess code. houdart, vas, they're doing the same thing (taking public code & improving it). hats off to both of them.
It all comes down to give proper credit. In art, they give tribute in interesting ways. For instance, "The name of the rose" (book and movie) by Umberto Ecco is heavily inspired by the "Library of Babel" of Borges. Borges was blind, and a librarian at one point in his life. There is a blind librarian character in the story named "Burgos".
fern wrote:Of course....but then, without ANY kind of fundamental non engine woud exist, any about nothing. You always make use of some previous ground to do anything, isnt it?
F
Fern, you should be flattered. He is saying your works are worthy of being accused of plagiarizing Shakespeare!
You're out of your element here. Surely you meant to say Cervantes. But you can't improve upon Cervantes (nor Shakespeare).
Not really. I read Cervantes (and Borges BTW), but Billy is still Billy, and even the South Americans concur. They will argue about the best Spanish language writer (or Portuguese), but not that Shakespeare is best, removing the language dispute. It is rather remarkable that a single author, one of the earliest in Modern English, is still so far above in terms of overall quality and sheer volume. Still, building on him is not just about writing nice things, but also establishing techniques and devices, just as Moliere is the father of comedy.
But this doesn't rise to plagiarism or improve upon the masters. It's one thing to incorporate principles and devices to one's own vernacular but quite another to copy text verbatim, which is the only intersection between your analogy and the case at hand. Steal but one paragraph without a footnote and the stain of plagiarism will be difficult to remove. How much more if it be many paragraphs and critical components of the plot!
Improve upon the masters? I rather think Rybka is an improvement. In any case, your comment said nothing about improvement.
Copy a paragraph? Happens all the time, though one can argue that when quoting Billy or a past great, it is public domain.
Copy critical components of the plot??? Well, I'm more inclined to ask which plot you can claim is original. There is a saying in literature that there is no such thing as an original story; all that changes is the telling.
i plus 1000 this. to me it relates to film. think about all the different ways basic plots have been 'told' in movies. it's in the directors eyes. it's sad to me that anyone cares so much about who does what with publically available chess code. houdart, vas, they're doing the same thing (taking public code & improving it). hats off to both of them.
The difference is Vas is selling the code. No kudos for that.
well i must be the biggest sucker in the world then. i'd pay for both products. and think both deserve fiscal compensation.
fern wrote:Of course....but then, without ANY kind of fundamental non engine woud exist, any about nothing. You always make use of some previous ground to do anything, isnt it?
F
Fern, you should be flattered. He is saying your works are worthy of being accused of plagiarizing Shakespeare!
You're out of your element here. Surely you meant to say Cervantes. But you can't improve upon Cervantes (nor Shakespeare).
Not really. I read Cervantes (and Borges BTW), but Billy is still Billy, and even the South Americans concur. They will argue about the best Spanish language writer (or Portuguese), but not that Shakespeare is best, removing the language dispute. It is rather remarkable that a single author, one of the earliest in Modern English, is still so far above in terms of overall quality and sheer volume. Still, building on him is not just about writing nice things, but also establishing techniques and devices, just as Moliere is the father of comedy.
But this doesn't rise to plagiarism or improve upon the masters. It's one thing to incorporate principles and devices to one's own vernacular but quite another to copy text verbatim, which is the only intersection between your analogy and the case at hand. Steal but one paragraph without a footnote and the stain of plagiarism will be difficult to remove. How much more if it be many paragraphs and critical components of the plot!
Improve upon the masters? I rather think Rybka is an improvement. In any case, your comment said nothing about improvement.
Copy a paragraph? Happens all the time, though one can argue that when quoting Billy or a past great, it is public domain.
Copy critical components of the plot??? Well, I'm more inclined to ask which plot you can claim is original. There is a saying in literature that there is no such thing as an original story; all that changes is the telling.
i plus 1000 this. to me it relates to film. think about all the different ways basic plots have been 'told' in movies. it's in the directors eyes. it's sad to me that anyone cares so much about who does what with publically available chess code. houdart, vas, they're doing the same thing (taking public code & improving it). hats off to both of them.
The difference is Vas is selling the code. No kudos for that.
well i must be the biggest sucker in the world then. i'd pay for both products. and think both deserve fiscal compensation.
If Fabien gets a cut I'll agree to that sentiment.
