Daily iPhone chess programs releases

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UncombedCoconut
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Re: ChessTiger Update

Post by UncombedCoconut » Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:40 pm

tomgdrums wrote:Well since Tord is not offended then it is okay. But it is just interesting watching Tord praise Chess Tiger and you insulting Stockfish.
Tord is a leading and prolific critic of the GUIs he has written. ;)

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tiger
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Re: ChessTiger Update

Post by tiger » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:29 am

Robert Flesher wrote:
Kaj Soderberg wrote:There is also another issue in analysis mode. The 3-minute barrier is lifted with the update, very good. But, when having passed those 3 minutes, no new plies are being displayed. I have tried this with a few positions, running them for over an hour. And yes, i would agree that multi-pv probably slows down the search which is not handy on slowish hardware. Food for thought for Christophe.

My best,
Kaj

It works for me Kaj, so I am not sure why yours is not showing plies after the given time? Can you post a position that this occurs in?

Yes please post an example so I can try it also and investigate this.

Thank you in advance.


// Christophe

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Re: ChessTiger Update

Post by tiger » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:36 am

tomgdrums wrote:
tiger wrote:
tomgdrums wrote:
I'm still experimenting and I'm just starting to understand a little bit about it. So I still do not know what the optimal recipe is.

Stockfish fulfills the needs of an infinitesimal fraction of people. It's a technical product made by a technical guy for people with the same set of mind. It does not work for people who want to discover chess or improve, it does not work for people with real chess needs. It works for people who read CCC (and to be polite I'm not going to mention what kind of percentage it represents relative to iOS devices users). It is downloaded because it's free. Easy. Put a price point on it and watch it get some impressive depth. In term of page ranking I mean.

I keep on reading CCC to keep in touch with the nerdy computer chess community but it is just a BAD habit of mine. Being influenced by what I read here is counterproductive in the sense that normal people have needs that have nothing to do with what is said here. I'm still trying to make everybody happy but this might be a mistake.



// Christophe
Wow. Tord has been nothing but complimentary to you and Chess Tiger, and unless I am missing some hidden sarcasm in your posts you have been rather impolite to him. In fact most of your responses to honest questions seem to be snotty and aimed to show how "put upon" you are by having to make your product. If it is that much of a downer for you, don't make it. Move on to Tic-tac-to as you say.

What did I say that is upsetting you so much?


// Christophe
Well since Tord is not offended then it is okay. But it is just interesting watching Tord praise Chess Tiger and you insulting Stockfish.

Come on... I am not insulting Tord by saying that Stockfish is (in my opinion) not suited for the majority of people who, on the App Store, are looking for a chess program.

Look at the offer on the App Store and see for yourself what is selling well.

As I have said somewhere else, I think Tord can be proud of Stockfish and it definitely has a lot of fans. But if you think that it is the ultimate chess program for iOS device, then you are completely wrong.

On the App Store you find every kind of people, from very young to very old people, male and female with no clear majority of one genre over the other, people with interests in arts, music, games,...

A fraction of these people will come accross the chess games apps, others will come specifically looking for one.

The large majority of them either do not know the rules, or believe they do but actually don't. I'm still getting complains about the en passant capture... The PalmOS version popped an information box when playing an EP explaining that it had just played a legal move! I need to resurect this popup. I'm getting this question over and over: how do I castle? Or this one: the program has just played a strange move, moving his King and Rook at the same time, what happened?

(I'm not insulting the users here: everybody has to learn before they can really play chess - I had to)

You need to look at the big picture and realize that for most users, Stockfish is not the right program. I'm not saying that mine is either. I do think it is better in this regard because I spent a lot of time working on some details, like providing the rules of chess and trying to have (hopefully) better looking graphics (I spent 3 weeks working on graphics alone - at the end my eyes were hurting). But a lot of work still needs to be done.

Let me give you an example of why I consider Tord to be a technical guy (I am one too) and that Stockfish is a technical app:

One of the nice features of Stockfish for iOS is that you can actually run the chess engine at home on a powerful PC, and the app in this case acts as a GUI for the remote engine.

I'm not aware of any other program doing it. If there is one, at least Tord has been the first one to provide such a feature.

This is naturally a feature that most people reading this forum appreciate, even if they do not actually use the app or use this particular feature. Stockfish CAN do that, it's great. You can have the power of a Quad in your pocket!

Now consider all the people who have downloaded a chess program from the App Store. I'm not taking any risk by saying than less than 0.1% of these people have any need for this feature. And that even less could actually set it up correctly (it requires opening a port in your router at home - you need to know how to do it - not Tord's fault).

So it's a great and sharp feature, but as the program lacks simpler features that would appeal to a much broader audience, my opinion is that Stockfish is a more technical program.

I stand by what I have said about Stockfish in the second paragraph of my initial post (quoted above).

Most people here consider that Stockfish for iOS is great because:
- it's one of the strongest engines
- it's free
And they are right.

What I'm saying is that the App Store is a very competitive place and that Stockfish sustains a good ranking because it is free.

I believe it would not sustain this ranking if it was not free.

On the other hand I think Tord should make money from Stockfish. He has already explained that he does not want to deal with the associated problems but I think that many people who be glad to pay for it and Tord could add technical features for them. There is a market for it, which is not the main market, but it hurts me to see bad clones of Stockfish making money when Tord doesn't.

And no, I'm not contradicting myself.


// Christophe

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tiger
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Re: ChessTiger Update

Post by tiger » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:05 am

tomgdrums wrote:
tiger wrote:
Tord Romstad wrote:
tiger wrote:
Tord Romstad wrote:
tiger wrote:The name is not important. Look, you can have a horrible and nonsensical name like "Stockfish" and still be popular. ;-)
True, but actually the iOS version is named "Stockfish chess", in order to make it easier to find accidentally when searching for chess programs on the app store. I have several friends with iPhones who wanted a chess program, downloaded the most promising looking free program they could find, and discovered to their surprise that I am the author (most of my friends don't know I'm a chess programmer). :)

Thanks a lot for the new version! The only thing I'm missing now is iPad support.

Actually I'm wondering why you use Chess Tiger. You have developped your own chess program for the same platform...

Just wondering.
For the same reason that most of us on this message board uses more than one chess program: They are all different, and it is fun to play against a variety of opponents. In addition to Stockfish, I use Chess Tiger, Chess Genius, Hiarcs and Kakinoki Shogi regularly on my iPhone and iPad. I also have Shredder and tChess Pro installed, but I don't like them as much as the other programs, and rarely use them.

Shredder has been a great inspiration for me. It showed me how disastrous it can be to try to cram too much information on such a small screen. :)

Tom are you listening? Are you going to complain to Stephan for this one? :)


// Christophe
No I am not going to complain at all. The ironic thing is that I agree with you about the era of cut and paste engines. None of them interest me. I enjoy the chance to purchase original engines by original authors. But your flippant answers to my honest questions regarding a potential Chess Tiger 2011 for PC and your disdain for other programs makes me question whether I care anymore about a Chess Tiger for PC.

As someone who complains (and rightfully so I might add) about the people who support the cut and paste engines, you might want to learn to be a little nicer to potential paying customers and your colleagues who also put out good product.

Just a thought.

Don't even think about it.


I have been posting here for years and stopped on the first days of september 2008 after having been flamed to the bones together with a few others. I was defending my opinion that Rybka was an illegal derivative of a GPL program. Looks like the general opinion has changed a little bit, but I'm not going to forget about this.

Now I'm back.

If I want to hide what I think, I just don't post.

If I post, I say what I really have in mind.


I have great respect for a number of chess programmers. Not all of them, but most of them. let me name for example Stephan, Mark, Richard, Bob, Tord, Frans, ... just to name a few (no offense meant to the great people I have left out).

It is an unfortunate fact that I am in direct competition with some of them. But I know, and they know, that we are the ones who have worked hard, for years, on our own creations. That we are fighting but that we have actually many things in common and we can imagine ourselves in each other's shoes (not sure if this sentence makes any sense, grammatically :) ).

I can imagine how they had to struggle with Objective-C in order to create an iOS GUI, for those who did it themselves. I can imagine how they had to struggle with their own existing code to implement interpolation between opening and endgame scores.

So there is definitely some kind of connection between us, a sense of competition, but no hate or disrespect I think.

On iOS, I find Shredder's GUI too cramped. So what?

Richard's program is outdated. So what? He is one of my idols.

Tord's program is not for everyone. So what?

I find Mark's program not appealing, graphically. So what?

Fritz, it seems, screwed up and has got a number of bad reviews. So what?

Chess Tiger is certainly the most outrageaous: it is available in english only. It is said that it is not competitive stength-wise. The first version was insufficiently tested and did not work on iOS 3.1.3. The email feature did not work either. I don't have permanent brain. Worse, the engine can do it but I will not implement it in the GUI.

So what?


Now about the "potential customers".

If someone likes my products and purchase them, great. If he does not purchase them because of what I say, that's perfectly fine with me. I would do exactly the same.

I'm not going to change what I think or what I say in fear of losing customers. I just don't care. You'd know if you were there 3 years ago, or before.


Last point:

You seem to be upset by the fact that I did not answer your question about Chess Tiger for PC.

I have been asked this question here a dozen times in the last few days and I did not answer. Maybe you have not noticed, but you are the only one taking offense.

I guess that the other persons have noticed the silence, that they have understood and, by respect, did not insist.

Sorry.


// Christophe

JManion
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Re: ChessTiger Update

Post by JManion » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:32 am

tiger wrote:
tomgdrums wrote:
tiger wrote:
Tord Romstad wrote:
tiger wrote:
Tord Romstad wrote:
tiger wrote:The name is not important. Look, you can have a horrible and nonsensical name like "Stockfish" and still be popular. ;-)
True, but actually the iOS version is named "Stockfish chess", in order to make it easier to find accidentally when searching for chess programs on the app store. I have several friends with iPhones who wanted a chess program, downloaded the most promising looking free program they could find, and discovered to their surprise that I am the author (most of my friends don't know I'm a chess programmer). :)

Thanks a lot for the new version! The only thing I'm missing now is iPad support.

Actually I'm wondering why you use Chess Tiger. You have developped your own chess program for the same platform...

Just wondering.
For the same reason that most of us on this message board uses more than one chess program: They are all different, and it is fun to play against a variety of opponents. In addition to Stockfish, I use Chess Tiger, Chess Genius, Hiarcs and Kakinoki Shogi regularly on my iPhone and iPad. I also have Shredder and tChess Pro installed, but I don't like them as much as the other programs, and rarely use them.

Shredder has been a great inspiration for me. It showed me how disastrous it can be to try to cram too much information on such a small screen. :)

Tom are you listening? Are you going to complain to Stephan for this one? :)


// Christophe
No I am not going to complain at all. The ironic thing is that I agree with you about the era of cut and paste engines. None of them interest me. I enjoy the chance to purchase original engines by original authors. But your flippant answers to my honest questions regarding a potential Chess Tiger 2011 for PC and your disdain for other programs makes me question whether I care anymore about a Chess Tiger for PC.

As someone who complains (and rightfully so I might add) about the people who support the cut and paste engines, you might want to learn to be a little nicer to potential paying customers and your colleagues who also put out good product.

Just a thought.

Don't even think about it.


I have been posting here for years and stopped on the first days of september 2008 after having been flamed to the bones together with a few others. I was defending my opinion that Rybka was an illegal derivative of a GPL program. Looks like the general opinion has changed a little bit, but I'm not going to forget about this.

Now I'm back.

If I want to hide what I think, I just don't post.

If I post, I say what I really have in mind.


I have great respect for a number of chess programmers. Not all of them, but most of them. let me name for example Stephan, Mark, Richard, Bob, Tord, Frans, ... just to name a few (no offense meant to the great people I have left out).

It is an unfortunate fact that I am in direct competition with some of them. But I know, and they know, that we are the ones who have worked hard, for years, on our own creations. That we are fighting but that we have actually many things in common and we can imagine ourselves in each other's shoes (not sure if this sentence makes any sense, grammatically :) ).

I can imagine how they had to struggle with Objective-C in order to create an iOS GUI, for those who did it themselves. I can imagine how they had to struggle with their own existing code to implement interpolation between opening and endgame scores.

So there is definitely some kind of connection between us, a sense of competition, but no hate or disrespect I think.

On iOS, I find Shredder's GUI too cramped. So what?

Richard's program is outdated. So what? He is one of my idols.

Tord's program is not for everyone. So what?

I find Mark's program not appealing, graphically. So what?

Fritz, it seems, screwed up and has got a number of bad reviews. So what?

Chess Tiger is certainly the most outrageaous: it is available in english only. It is said that it is not competitive stength-wise. The first version was insufficiently tested and did not work on iOS 3.1.3. The email feature did not work either. I don't have permanent brain. Worse, the engine can do it but I will not implement it in the GUI.

So what?


Now about the "potential customers".

If someone likes my products and purchase them, great. If he does not purchase them because of what I say, that's perfectly fine with me. I would do exactly the same.

I'm not going to change what I think or what I say in fear of losing customers. I just don't care. You'd know if you were there 3 years ago, or before.


Last point:

You seem to be upset by the fact that I did not answer your question about Chess Tiger for PC.

I have been asked this question here a dozen times in the last few days and I did not answer. Maybe you have not noticed, but you are the only one taking offense.

I guess that the other persons have noticed the silence, that they have understood and, by respect, did not insist.

Sorry.


// Christophe
I do not post often but when I do I drink Dos Equis.... hmm wait a minute...

This is a great post!

Thanks for all the hard work over the years on chess tiger.


PS I also love to play stockfish on my droid.....

DomLeste
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Re: ChessTiger Update

Post by DomLeste » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:44 am

tiger wrote:
tomgdrums wrote:
tiger wrote:
tomgdrums wrote:
I'm still experimenting and I'm just starting to understand a little bit about it. So I still do not know what the optimal recipe is.

Stockfish fulfills the needs of an infinitesimal fraction of people. It's a technical product made by a technical guy for people with the same set of mind. It does not work for people who want to discover chess or improve, it does not work for people with real chess needs. It works for people who read CCC (and to be polite I'm not going to mention what kind of percentage it represents relative to iOS devices users). It is downloaded because it's free. Easy. Put a price point on it and watch it get some impressive depth. In term of page ranking I mean.

I keep on reading CCC to keep in touch with the nerdy computer chess community but it is just a BAD habit of mine. Being influenced by what I read here is counterproductive in the sense that normal people have needs that have nothing to do with what is said here. I'm still trying to make everybody happy but this might be a mistake.



// Christophe
Wow. Tord has been nothing but complimentary to you and Chess Tiger, and unless I am missing some hidden sarcasm in your posts you have been rather impolite to him. In fact most of your responses to honest questions seem to be snotty and aimed to show how "put upon" you are by having to make your product. If it is that much of a downer for you, don't make it. Move on to Tic-tac-to as you say.

What did I say that is upsetting you so much?


// Christophe
Well since Tord is not offended then it is okay. But it is just interesting watching Tord praise Chess Tiger and you insulting Stockfish.

Come on... I am not insulting Tord by saying that Stockfish is (in my opinion) not suited for the majority of people who, on the App Store, are looking for a chess program.

Look at the offer on the App Store and see for yourself what is selling well.

As I have said somewhere else, I think Tord can be proud of Stockfish and it definitely has a lot of fans. But if you think that it is the ultimate chess program for iOS device, then you are completely wrong.

On the App Store you find every kind of people, from very young to very old people, male and female with no clear majority of one genre over the other, people with interests in arts, music, games,...

A fraction of these people will come accross the chess games apps, others will come specifically looking for one.

The large majority of them either do not know the rules, or believe they do but actually don't. I'm still getting complains about the en passant capture... The PalmOS version popped an information box when playing an EP explaining that it had just played a legal move! I need to resurect this popup. I'm getting this question over and over: how do I castle? Or this one: the program has just played a strange move, moving his King and Rook at the same time, what happened?

(I'm not insulting the users here: everybody has to learn before they can really play chess - I had to)

You need to look at the big picture and realize that for most users, Stockfish is not the right program. I'm not saying that mine is either. I do think it is better in this regard because I spent a lot of time working on some details, like providing the rules of chess and trying to have (hopefully) better looking graphics (I spent 3 weeks working on graphics alone - at the end my eyes were hurting). But a lot of work still needs to be done.

Let me give you an example of why I consider Tord to be a technical guy (I am one too) and that Stockfish is a technical app:

One of the nice features of Stockfish for iOS is that you can actually run the chess engine at home on a powerful PC, and the app in this case acts as a GUI for the remote engine.

I'm not aware of any other program doing it. If there is one, at least Tord has been the first one to provide such a feature.

This is naturally a feature that most people reading this forum appreciate, even if they do not actually use the app or use this particular feature. Stockfish CAN do that, it's great. You can have the power of a Quad in your pocket!

Now consider all the people who have downloaded a chess program from the App Store. I'm not taking any risk by saying than less than 0.1% of these people have any need for this feature. And that even less could actually set it up correctly (it requires opening a port in your router at home - you need to know how to do it - not Tord's fault).

So it's a great and sharp feature, but as the program lacks simpler features that would appeal to a much broader audience, my opinion is that Stockfish is a more technical program.

I stand by what I have said about Stockfish in the second paragraph of my initial post (quoted above).

Most people here consider that Stockfish for iOS is great because:
- it's one of the strongest engines
- it's free
And they are right.

What I'm saying is that the App Store is a very competitive place and that Stockfish sustains a good ranking because it is free.

I believe it would not sustain this ranking if it was not free.

On the other hand I think Tord should make money from Stockfish. He has already explained that he does not want to deal with the associated problems but I think that many people who be glad to pay for it and Tord could add technical features for them. There is a market for it, which is not the main market, but it hurts me to see bad clones of Stockfish making money when Tord doesn't.

And no, I'm not contradicting myself.


// Christophe
No program will cater to everyones needs unfortunately the chess market too varied from beginner to GM level. Different strokes for different folks :-) Programmers have to draw a line somewhere to appeal to they niche customer base! You cant make everyone happy :-) Like everything in life music, TV series, cinema etc... Some will love it, some will loathe thats human nature you cant have it all :lol: Unless your a dictator? :lol:

"On ne marie pas les poules avec les renards"
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

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Steve Maughan
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Re: ChessTiger Update

Post by Steve Maughan » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:26 pm

tiger wrote:I think Tord should make money from Stockfish
I agree.

I've (almost) begged him to charge $1 for it.

What I'm about to say is not intended in any way as a criticism of Tord - it's his engine and he can do whatever he wants with it. But I believe by giving it away Stockfish for free he is "holding up the market". By this I mean, he is preventing others from making a living from computer chess. Which most likely will end up in little genuine GUI development.

Capitalist Regards,

Steve

tomgdrums
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Re: ChessTiger Update

Post by tomgdrums » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:33 pm

tiger wrote:
tomgdrums wrote:
tiger wrote:
Tord Romstad wrote:
tiger wrote:
Tord Romstad wrote:
tiger wrote:The name is not important. Look, you can have a horrible and nonsensical name like "Stockfish" and still be popular. ;-)
True, but actually the iOS version is named "Stockfish chess", in order to make it easier to find accidentally when searching for chess programs on the app store. I have several friends with iPhones who wanted a chess program, downloaded the most promising looking free program they could find, and discovered to their surprise that I am the author (most of my friends don't know I'm a chess programmer). :)

Thanks a lot for the new version! The only thing I'm missing now is iPad support.

Actually I'm wondering why you use Chess Tiger. You have developped your own chess program for the same platform...

Just wondering.
For the same reason that most of us on this message board uses more than one chess program: They are all different, and it is fun to play against a variety of opponents. In addition to Stockfish, I use Chess Tiger, Chess Genius, Hiarcs and Kakinoki Shogi regularly on my iPhone and iPad. I also have Shredder and tChess Pro installed, but I don't like them as much as the other programs, and rarely use them.

Shredder has been a great inspiration for me. It showed me how disastrous it can be to try to cram too much information on such a small screen. :)

Tom are you listening? Are you going to complain to Stephan for this one? :)


// Christophe
No I am not going to complain at all. The ironic thing is that I agree with you about the era of cut and paste engines. None of them interest me. I enjoy the chance to purchase original engines by original authors. But your flippant answers to my honest questions regarding a potential Chess Tiger 2011 for PC and your disdain for other programs makes me question whether I care anymore about a Chess Tiger for PC.

As someone who complains (and rightfully so I might add) about the people who support the cut and paste engines, you might want to learn to be a little nicer to potential paying customers and your colleagues who also put out good product.

Just a thought.

Don't even think about it.


I have been posting here for years and stopped on the first days of september 2008 after having been flamed to the bones together with a few others. I was defending my opinion that Rybka was an illegal derivative of a GPL program. Looks like the general opinion has changed a little bit, but I'm not going to forget about this.

Now I'm back.

If I want to hide what I think, I just don't post.

If I post, I say what I really have in mind.


I have great respect for a number of chess programmers. Not all of them, but most of them. let me name for example Stephan, Mark, Richard, Bob, Tord, Frans, ... just to name a few (no offense meant to the great people I have left out).

It is an unfortunate fact that I am in direct competition with some of them. But I know, and they know, that we are the ones who have worked hard, for years, on our own creations. That we are fighting but that we have actually many things in common and we can imagine ourselves in each other's shoes (not sure if this sentence makes any sense, grammatically :) ).

I can imagine how they had to struggle with Objective-C in order to create an iOS GUI, for those who did it themselves. I can imagine how they had to struggle with their own existing code to implement interpolation between opening and endgame scores.

So there is definitely some kind of connection between us, a sense of competition, but no hate or disrespect I think.

On iOS, I find Shredder's GUI too cramped. So what?

Richard's program is outdated. So what? He is one of my idols.

Tord's program is not for everyone. So what?

I find Mark's program not appealing, graphically. So what?

Fritz, it seems, screwed up and has got a number of bad reviews. So what?

Chess Tiger is certainly the most outrageaous: it is available in english only. It is said that it is not competitive stength-wise. The first version was insufficiently tested and did not work on iOS 3.1.3. The email feature did not work either. I don't have permanent brain. Worse, the engine can do it but I will not implement it in the GUI.

So what?


Now about the "potential customers".

If someone likes my products and purchase them, great. If he does not purchase them because of what I say, that's perfectly fine with me. I would do exactly the same.

I'm not going to change what I think or what I say in fear of losing customers. I just don't care. You'd know if you were there 3 years ago, or before.


Last point:

You seem to be upset by the fact that I did not answer your question about Chess Tiger for PC.

I have been asked this question here a dozen times in the last few days and I did not answer. Maybe you have not noticed, but you are the only one taking offense.

I guess that the other persons have noticed the silence, that they have understood and, by respect, did not insist.

Sorry.


// Christophe

You mention the word respect. Would it not have been respectful for you to just have answered my question with a simple, "I do not yet know my plans for Chess Tiger 2011 on other platforms."

I asked because I was excited and enthusiastic about it! Sorry about that!

And yet when you did eventually answer you answered in a sarcastic and disrespectful way. Why?

Again I am sorry that I was initially enthusiastic about your program. I won't commit that sin again.

rbarreira
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Re: ChessTiger Update

Post by rbarreira » Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:40 pm

Steve Maughan wrote:
tiger wrote:I think Tord should make money from Stockfish
I agree.

I've (almost) begged him to charge $1 for it.

What I'm about to say is not intended in any way as a criticism of Tord - it's his engine and he can do whatever he wants with it. But I believe by giving it away Stockfish for free he is "holding up the market". By this I mean, he is preventing others from making a living from computer chess. Which most likely will end up in little genuine GUI development.

Capitalist Regards,

Steve
Sounds like those "others" you referred to should take responsibility for selling their own programs rather than blaming free programs for their alleged lack of success.

It's a bit ridiculous when you imagine Microsoft begging Linus Torvalds to start charging for Linux...

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Re: ChessTiger Update

Post by Steve Maughan » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:26 pm

Ricardo,

I'm not speaking for the "others" you refer to. Nor am I aware of anyone who is complaining about Tord or their, "lack of success".

Tord is entitled to do whatever he wants with the fruits of his labor (as is Linus). However if we value quality chess GUIs and engines there must be a market for them (i.e. people must be able to earn a living, or at least some form of living, from devoting their time to these ventures). Tord, by giving his product for free, is devaluing that market. He has the right to do this. But it does have consequences. Don't expect other, who are not in as a privaleged position as Tord (I emphasize no criticism intended), to dedicate time to develop chess GUIs or engines.

Best regards,

Steve


Steve

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