A Fitting Punishment?

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Steve B
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Re: A Fitting Punishment?

Post by Steve B » Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:47 pm

Yes
thanks much Roger
Best Regards
Steve

Terry McCracken
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Re: A Fitting Punishment?

Post by Terry McCracken » Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:53 pm

Kirk wrote:
Terry McCracken wrote:
Steve B wrote:any chance the mods can remove Evans post?
the size of the cartoon makes any subsequent posts unreadable

Thanks
Steve
I've asked as well...it's ruining the thread as it's huge!

scrollscrollscrollscrollscrollscrollscrollscrollscrollscrollscroll
Me thinks we know the intent lol

Image
Yep! :lol:
Terry McCracken

Terry McCracken
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Re: A Fitting Punishment?

Post by Terry McCracken » Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:54 pm

Thanks Roger!
Terry McCracken

benstoker
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Re: A Fitting Punishment?

Post by benstoker » Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:30 am

Steve B wrote:While the ICGA investigation proceeds in Ernest i wonder what the CCC members think would be a fitting punishment ASSUMING all of the allegations are true?

i imagine those charged with hammering out justice in this case will try to match the crime with a fitting punishment

i quote from section 3 of the ICGA Clone and Derivative Investigation Panel founding statues( February 22nd 2011)
(Bold type and underling are my own)

--------------------------------------------------

h] The ICGA shall consider the reports and recommendations of the Panel and shall at its sole discretion decide upon what action if any should be taken. The sanctions that the ICGA might take against those found guilty of cloning or creating a derivative include but are not limited to:

Banning the guilty person(s)from participation in future ICGA events for any period deemed appropriate by the ICGA;

[ii] Publicizing, wheresoever it deems appropriate, the allegations and the names of those who have been investigated by the Panel and the findings of the Panel;

[iii] Recommending to other computer event organizers the exclusion of persons who have been found guilty by the Panel.

[iv] Annulling any titles that have already been awarded to programs that have since found by the Panel to have been clones or derivative programs, and demanding the return of any prize money paid to the offending programmer(s).

-------------------------------------------------------


Some think that each Rybka engine that won from 2007-2010 should be treated differently and if Rybka 2007 is found to be an illegal derivative then this does not carry to Rybka 2008 which should stand on its own..like wise for Rybka 2009 and so on

my own personal feeling regarding the punishment issue is pretty straight forward
IF Rybka is found to have been an illegal derivative for ANY ICGA tournament it entered .. then the engine author should be banned from all events.. past ..present and future
all titles (starting with the first titled engine declared illegal)should be revoked and any prize money clawed back
declaring Rybka 2007 illegal and then allowing Rybka 2010(for example) to retain the world title sends the wrong message to the larger CC community that is watching these proceedings very closely(see thread about mainstream media )
ICGA needs to send a strong and clear message to any future aspiring engine authors that this sort of nonsense will not be tolerated and to the world at large that it can police its own events
ANY Engine author caught entering illegal programs in ICGA events .. forever forfeits the right of participation in future ICGA events
the CC community and ICGA should reward hard working engine authors who try to create something original and not those who play it loose and easy
an example needs to be set in this egregious case
YMMV
Hammer Of Justice Regards
Steve

Punishment? No. Just create a ICGA Chess Engine Special Olympics for clones. Rybka can still compete with its other clones, Ippo/Robbo/Ivan/Houdini versions 18,384.0234f all the way up .000012_BetA.

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michiguel
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Re: A Fitting Punishment?

Post by michiguel » Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:57 am

Steve B wrote:While the ICGA investigation proceeds in Ernest i wonder what the CCC members think would be a fitting punishment ASSUMING all of the allegations are true?
A similar punishment to what other people had in similar circumstances. What was the punishment for El Chinito, for instance? (beyond disqualification).

Miguel

Tom Barrister
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Re: A Fitting Punishment?

Post by Tom Barrister » Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:00 am

If the allegations are found to be true, every iteration of Rybka should forfeit the titles.

1) The man was guilty with Rybka 1.0 beta, therefore he should be retroactively banned from all future competitons.

2) It's absurd to believe that if the first engine was made by illegal means that future engines would be totally clean.

At the very best, once proven guilty with Rybka 1.0 beta, the onus of proof falls on Mr. Rajlich to prove that subsequent versions are legit, not the other way around. "Once a thief, always a thief."
This production is being brought to you by Rybka: "The engine made from scratch.™"

Dirt
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Re: A Fitting Punishment?

Post by Dirt » Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:04 am

Steve B wrote:While the ICGA investigation proceeds in Ernest i wonder what the CCC members think would be a fitting punishment ASSUMING all of the allegations are true?
I could see taking back the titles, but the prize money sounds hard to enforce. I wouldn't bother trying.

You'd want to inspect his current source before allowing him in a future competition. I doubt he'd agree.

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Re: A Fitting Punishment?

Post by K I Hyams » Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:40 pm

Dirt wrote:
Steve B wrote:While the ICGA investigation proceeds in Ernest i wonder what the CCC members think would be a fitting punishment ASSUMING all of the allegations are true?
I could see taking back the titles, but the prize money sounds hard to enforce. I wouldn't bother trying.

You'd want to inspect his current source before allowing him in a future competition. I doubt he'd agree.
If the ICGA result is unfavourable to him, then he may have a hard job defending a legal action brought about by those who may have sustained losses as a consequence of his actions.

In addition and even if he does show his code, he might find that tournament organisers take an unsympathetic attitude towards readmitting him to tournaments unless he does repay money that he obtained fraudulently.

One of our members implies that this should be treated in a similar way to the El Chinito affair. I think that it is far far more serious than that.

Steve B
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Re: A Fitting Punishment?

Post by Steve B » Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:11 pm

K I Hyams wrote:
One of our members implies that this should be treated in a similar way to the El Chinito affair. I think that it is far far more serious than that.
Clearly
although even just a "Disqualification"..which seems like nothing more then a slap on the wrist...would logically carry with it the revocation of the World Champion title and prize money for that year
unless even the most compassionate members amongst us feel that a disqualified engine should be allowed to keep its first place standing and prize money in an event it was disqualified from
:P

IMHO ..
the key to a just and fitting punishment in this case .. is that once the charges are proven against a particular Rybka engine version ..then all titles need to be revoked rolling forward from the first tournament where that illegal engine won a title to all subsequent tournaments entered into by that engine author ..with a demand that all excuses be laid aside and all prize money be returned.. without further delay

Steve

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michiguel
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Re: A Fitting Punishment?

Post by michiguel » Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:40 pm

Steve B wrote:
K I Hyams wrote:
One of our members implies that this should be treated in a similar way to the El Chinito affair. I think that it is far far more serious than that.
Clearly
although even just a "Disqualification"..which seems like nothing more then a slap on the wrist...would logically carry with it the revocation of the World Champion title and prize money for that year
unless even the most compassionate members amongst us feel that a disqualified engine should be allowed to keep its first place standing and prize money in an event it was disqualified from
:P
@Keith
First, I did not imply anything. I asked what the punishment was in el chinito case. I can hardly imply anything when i do not know the details of that case. That is why I asked.
It looks like you know. What was it? Was not the crime similar? why is it different? It was a cloning case right? What was another recent case to compare? List was exonerated, so I guess it does not count.

According to Steve, it was only disqualification? no suspension?

Miguel

IMHO ..
the key to a just and fitting punishment in this case .. is that once the charges are proven against a particular Rybka engine version ..then all titles need to be revoked rolling forward from the first tournament where that illegal engine won a title to all subsequent tournaments entered into by that engine author ..with a demand that all excuses be laid aside and all prize money be returned.. without further delay

Steve

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