To the Copy and Paste Generation of Programmers

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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gerold
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Re: To the Copy and Paste Generation of Programmers

Post by gerold » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:55 pm

Michel wrote:
Besides the houdini author, who else has managed it?
Examples are the authors of Rybka and Toga.

Another example is Marco and Joona improving Glaurung.

Very likely there are more examples which are not known.
True. Just take a look at the top 20 engines on rating lists.
Most have taken idea's, code etc. from the Ivanhoe family.
Where did all these new engines come from and with big improvements
in just a few months.

Tom Barrister
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Re: To the Copy and Paste Generation of Programmers

Post by Tom Barrister » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:41 pm

Michel wrote:
Besides the houdini author, who else has managed it?
Examples are the authors of Rybka and Toga.
Odd, since the same man (Mr. Letouzey) was the original programmer of both, e.g. both are forks of Fruit.
This production is being brought to you by Rybka: "The engine made from scratch.™"

Carotino
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Re: To the Copy and Paste Generation of Programmers

Post by Carotino » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:59 pm

I am not opposed to taking an existing engine and improve it. If this is done properly is a good thing, especially not waste time with tedious technicalities (now, professional programmers will kill me! :twisted: ). The important is respected the work of others. Mark and Joona have improved significantly Glaurung, but they released the source code and indicated the origin. This is morally and legally correct.

The original program has improved, and others can use the ideas and techniques published ... Always respecting the spirit (but mostly the license!) of Open Source. But if I take the code that interests me, I close the code and hold it for me ... Well, the thing is different. Both from the moral point of view that from a legal standpoint.

mcostalba
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Re: To the Copy and Paste Generation of Programmers

Post by mcostalba » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:50 pm

Carotino wrote: It is not difficult to make any changes to a strong engine, and improve a bit 'its performance
Roberto, if you are able to improve SF 2.0.1 of "just" 20 ELO you win a free beer from me !! :-)


BTW I agree with your point of view, it is also mine as I have stated many times here in the past.

Dann Corbit
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Re: To the Copy and Paste Generation of Programmers

Post by Dann Corbit » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:44 pm

gerold wrote:
Michel wrote:
Besides the houdini author, who else has managed it?
Examples are the authors of Rybka and Toga.

Another example is Marco and Joona improving Glaurung.

Very likely there are more examples which are not known.
True. Just take a look at the top 20 engines on rating lists.
Most have taken idea's, code etc. from the Ivanhoe family.
Where did all these new engines come from and with big improvements
in just a few months.
How is it that you know programs on the top 20 list have taken code from the Ivanhoe family?

Toga did not improve 200 Elo over fruit from other people's code.
If fact, almost all of the improvement of Toga is from SMP:

Code: Select all

Fruit 2.3.1	2888	+14	-13	50.0%	-0.4	46.1%	1721
Toga II 1.4.1SE	2930	+12	-11	49.8%	+3.7	43.7%	2451
The strongest Toga is only 42 Elo stronger than Fruit when run on a single CPU.

Marco and Joona started with Stockfish and not Glaurung and they did not impove it 200 Elo with code from other programs.

These are the top 20 program from the CCRL list, after removing duplicates:

Code: Select all

no Program Elo + - Games Score Av.Op. Draws 
1 Houdini 1.5a x64 6CPU 3294 23 23 600 73.0% 3121 36.0% 
3 Deep Rybka 4 x64 6CPU 3245 23 23 500 71.2% 3087 43.6% 
6 Stockfish 1.8 x64 6CPU 3209 22 22 500 65.6% 3096 48.8% 
14 Critter 0.90 x64 6CPU 3162 26 26 350 53.6% 3138 48.3% 
19 Naum 4.2 x64 6CPU 3148 25 25 350 49.9% 3149 52.3% 
35 Spike 1.4 4CPU 3065 20 20 650 50.8% 3059 43.2% 
36 Deep Fritz 12 6CPU 3062 26 26 348 43.5% 3107 49.7% 
37 Deep Shredder 12 x64 4CPU 3061 8 8 4329 52.6% 3043 42.7% 
38 Zappa Mexico II x64 6CPU 3050 24 24 400 42.4% 3103 51.2% 
40 Protector 1.4.0 x64 4CPU 3047 23 23 500 48.3% 3059 42.6% 
42 Hiarcs 13.2 MP 4CPU 3042 15 15 1165 41.9% 3098 45.7% 
46 Komodo 1.3 x64 3022 14 14 1370 47.4% 3040 44.3% 
48 Spark 1.0 x64 4CPU 3021 14 14 1300 43.7% 3065 44.5% 
55 Deep Junior 12 x64 4CPU 3004 15 15 1250 46.0% 3032 40.4% 
63 Fruit 090705 x64 4CPU 2980 17 17 917 42.4% 3033 41.3% 
64 Deep Sjeng ct 2010 2977 13 13 1553 46.7% 3000 43.5% 
65 Gull 1.1 x64 2975 15 15 1122 50.4% 2973 42.8% 
67 Thinker 5.4Di x64 4CPU 2972 11 11 2140 51.2% 2964 42.4% 
68 Deep Onno 1.2.70 x64 4CPU 2971 18 18 807 45.0% 3006 46.3% 
I guess two or three may have some code from other open source programs. Of course, that is a very bad thing. I suspect that almost alll of them have ideas from these programs. Of course, that is a very good thing and exactly how things ought to work.

Michel
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Re: To the Copy and Paste Generation of Programmers

Post by Michel » Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:54 pm

Toga did not improve 200 Elo over fruit from other people's code.
I think it did improve 200 Elo because it started from Fruit 2.1 not 2.3.1 (which is closed source BTW). I never said that the Toga author used other people's code (except of course the Fruit code).
Marco and Joona started with Stockfish and not Glaurung and they did not impove it 200 Elo with code from other programs.
In fact Marco started Stockfish (and gave it its name). I assume that Stockfish is more
than 200 Elo stronger than Glaurung (I did not check it). Again I never said they used other people's work.

Dann Corbit
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Re: To the Copy and Paste Generation of Programmers

Post by Dann Corbit » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:07 pm

Michel wrote:
Toga did not improve 200 Elo over fruit from other people's code.
I think it did improve 200 Elo because it started from Fruit 2.1 not 2.3.1 (which is closed source BTW). I never said that the Toga author used other people's code (except of course the Fruit code).
Marco and Joona started with Stockfish and not Glaurung and they did not impove it 200 Elo with code from other programs.
In fact Marco started Stockfish (and gave it its name). I assume that Stockfish is more
than 200 Elo stronger than Glaurung (I did not check it). Again I never said they used other people's work.

Code: Select all

Fruit 2.1	2794	+25	−25	51.4%	−12.4	37.5%	506
Toga II 1.4.1SE	2930	+12	−11	49.8%	+3.7	43.7%	2451
136 Elo, so still most of the strength is from SMP.

You are right about Stockfish. I recalled incorrectly that Tord wrote the first version, but the initial version (1.0) was a fork of Glaurung by Marco.

Adam Hair
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Re: To the Copy and Paste Generation of Programmers

Post by Adam Hair » Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:38 pm

Dann Corbit wrote:
gerold wrote:
Michel wrote:
Besides the houdini author, who else has managed it?
Examples are the authors of Rybka and Toga.

Another example is Marco and Joona improving Glaurung.

Very likely there are more examples which are not known.
True. Just take a look at the top 20 engines on rating lists.
Most have taken idea's, code etc. from the Ivanhoe family.
Where did all these new engines come from and with big improvements
in just a few months.
How is it that you know programs on the top 20 list have taken code from the Ivanhoe family?

Toga did not improve 200 Elo over fruit from other people's code.
If fact, almost all of the improvement of Toga is from SMP:

Code: Select all

Fruit 2.3.1	2888	+14	-13	50.0%	-0.4	46.1%	1721
Toga II 1.4.1SE	2930	+12	-11	49.8%	+3.7	43.7%	2451
The strongest Toga is only 42 Elo stronger than Fruit when run on a single CPU.

Marco and Joona started with Stockfish and not Glaurung and they did not impove it 200 Elo with code from other programs.

These are the top 20 program from the CCRL list, after removing duplicates:

Code: Select all

no Program Elo + - Games Score Av.Op. Draws 
1 Houdini 1.5a x64 6CPU 3294 23 23 600 73.0% 3121 36.0% 
3 Deep Rybka 4 x64 6CPU 3245 23 23 500 71.2% 3087 43.6% 
6 Stockfish 1.8 x64 6CPU 3209 22 22 500 65.6% 3096 48.8% 
14 Critter 0.90 x64 6CPU 3162 26 26 350 53.6% 3138 48.3% 
19 Naum 4.2 x64 6CPU 3148 25 25 350 49.9% 3149 52.3% 
35 Spike 1.4 4CPU 3065 20 20 650 50.8% 3059 43.2% 
36 Deep Fritz 12 6CPU 3062 26 26 348 43.5% 3107 49.7% 
37 Deep Shredder 12 x64 4CPU 3061 8 8 4329 52.6% 3043 42.7% 
38 Zappa Mexico II x64 6CPU 3050 24 24 400 42.4% 3103 51.2% 
40 Protector 1.4.0 x64 4CPU 3047 23 23 500 48.3% 3059 42.6% 
42 Hiarcs 13.2 MP 4CPU 3042 15 15 1165 41.9% 3098 45.7% 
46 Komodo 1.3 x64 3022 14 14 1370 47.4% 3040 44.3% 
48 Spark 1.0 x64 4CPU 3021 14 14 1300 43.7% 3065 44.5% 
55 Deep Junior 12 x64 4CPU 3004 15 15 1250 46.0% 3032 40.4% 
63 Fruit 090705 x64 4CPU 2980 17 17 917 42.4% 3033 41.3% 
64 Deep Sjeng ct 2010 2977 13 13 1553 46.7% 3000 43.5% 
65 Gull 1.1 x64 2975 15 15 1122 50.4% 2973 42.8% 
67 Thinker 5.4Di x64 4CPU 2972 11 11 2140 51.2% 2964 42.4% 
68 Deep Onno 1.2.70 x64 4CPU 2971 18 18 807 45.0% 3006 46.3% 
I guess two or three may have some code from other open source programs. Of course, that is a very bad thing. I suspect that almost alll of them have ideas from these programs. Of course, that is a very good thing and exactly how things ought to work.
You meant to say the CEGT list. We are not using 6 core processors at this time.

smatovic
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Re: To the Copy and Paste Generation of Programmers

Post by smatovic » Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:22 pm

i get sick of Programmers
sorry for my speech, i was a bit upset, i should say "i am brassed off"....

--
Srdja

Carotino
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Re: To the Copy and Paste Generation of Programmers

Post by Carotino » Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:51 pm

mcostalba wrote:
Carotino wrote: It is not difficult to make any changes to a strong engine, and improve a bit 'its performance
Roberto, if you are able to improve SF 2.0.1 of "just" 20 ELO you win a free beer from me !! :-)


BTW I agree with your point of view, it is also mine as I have stated many times here in the past.
Hi Marco!
Mine was a little provocation... :wink:

However, in all programs, there is always room for improvement.

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