Houdini, Fire, IvanHoe, (and Rybka?) are 'clones'...?

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kranium
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Houdini, Fire, IvanHoe, (and Rybka?) are 'clones'...?

Post by kranium » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:28 pm

Houdini, Fire, IvanHoe, RobboLito, etc. are all a 'clones'? (Rybka as well?)
This is absolute nonsense.
In all of the above (except Rybka), there is absolutely no evidence of wrongdoing of any kind)!
IppoLit source code is free for any and all use!

But wait...here, in this sad and misguided forum...anything that doesn't have a 'Crafty-like pedigree' is directly cast as a 'clone'?
It's really sad that the founding member and moderator (Bob Hyatt) has managed to saturate the Talkchess lemmings with his extreme, overbearing, and puritanical academic ideals...

The facts:
The development of IvanHoe, etc. has been ongoing for 2 years now...
the program has grown from a basic skeleton engine to a full-featured analysis tool...
they have added feature after feature... including many technical innovations.

the development includes (but not limited to):

Windows and Linux support
SMP support,
a complete bitbase solution that surpasses Nalimov EGTB,
Montecarlo analysis,
sophisticated hashing options,
compiling tracing,
Magic Bitboards,
ZugZwang detection
Large pages
Eval and Material explanation modes,
etc., etc.
the list goes on and on...

----------------------------------------
So?
Fire, IvanHoe, Houdini, Rybka,...etc.
What to do?

Duh,...how about simply labeling these programs as a 'controversial' or maybe 'suspected derivatives'?
Testing groups could simply maintain a separate list, not allowing entrance into serious tournaments...

But, why all the fuss, contempt, and ridicule?
*Because the one's crying the loudest seem to be establishment programmers seeking to discredit all other engine at any cost...
more limelight for them and their 'original' program.

Stockfish is 100% original?!
sheez, no...maybe a couple years ago.
All programs have benefited or are benefiting (or should be) from the release of IppoLit...
Komodo, Critter, Fire...and the blessed 'derivative' Stockfish' as well!

IppoLit published to the public domain the most advanced chess programming ideas ever!
a bonanza for the art/science/technology!

But the chess programming cronies (sorry - establishment) can't (or refuses to) recognize that?

Let's see, after 2 years, IppoLit has been severely pillaged and raped by this same chess establishment...
(and especially by the 'puritanical' Talkchess programmers of 'original?' engines)
at the same time they ridicule, exile, and condemn it...!
What hypocrites!

Yes, good idea! Rape the messenger, then shoot him!

Norm

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kranium
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Re: Houdini, Fire, IvanHoe, (and Rybka?) are 'clones'...?

Post by kranium » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:22 pm

kranium wrote: ...how about simply labeling these programs as a 'controversial' or maybe 'suspected derivatives'?
Even better!

How about 'original' and 'non-original'?
!!!

with separate facilities for each...
some programs could qualify as both!?
:shock:

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kranium
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Re: Houdini, Fire, IvanHoe, (and Rybka?) are 'clones'...?

Post by kranium » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:33 pm

from Openchess.org:
http://www.open-chess.org/viewtopic.php ... 6&start=10
hyatt wrote:Clones. Derivatives. Doesn't matter. Either is just as bad (and unacceptable) as the other.
hmmm...yes I see your point,
the only good program is one with a history like Crafty.
the 1st, the one and only, the true original!

???

Well that leaves Crafty vs Fruit (with maybe Glaurung as a stand-in in case Fruit opts out?) for the 2012 world championship!

Sean Evans
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Re: Houdini, Fire, IvanHoe, (and Rybka?) are 'clones'...?

Post by Sean Evans » Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:00 pm

Would you please block Norm the trolls account now.

Thank you :roll:

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kranium
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Re: Houdini, Fire, IvanHoe, (and Rybka?) are 'clones'...?

Post by kranium » Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:03 pm

Sean Evans wrote:Would you please block Norm the trolls account now.

Thank you :roll:
Typical for this forum...
don't like someone's opinion...?
or free speech rubs you the wrong way?

attack him, call him names, and start a flame war!
if you are rude enough, the moderators may very well lock the thread...

thanks for the meaningful and insightful post Sean,
always good to hear your educated and unbiased opinion on these important issues!

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fern
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Re: Houdini, Fire, IvanHoe, (and Rybka?) are 'clones'...?

Post by fern » Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:24 pm

"Typical of this forum?
Man, you are posting, right?
I am moderator and I have not blocked or erased this post, right?
The forum gives rooms also to Sean to attack or debate with you, right?

So, post and live, receive and give.

Fern

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kranium
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Re: Houdini, Fire, IvanHoe, (and Rybka?) are 'clones'...?

Post by kranium » Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:33 pm

fern wrote: The forum gives rooms also to Sean to attack or debate with you, right?
Fern
Fern-

I'm aware that I'm very critical of the Talkchess 'establishment'...
but that doesn't mean current moderators are by default included.

One of the reasons I feel 'free' to post my opinions here is that I feel the current moderation does indeed exercise appropriate restraint..
please don't take my criticisms personally...

That being said:
I disagree:
IMO, if you disagree with someone, attacks are not ok...

But yes, I fully expect attacks and can accept them...
no problem on my end...
give it your best shot Sean!

I'm sure 'troll' is just the start!
Last edited by kranium on Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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hgm
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Re: Houdini, Fire, IvanHoe, (and Rybka?) are 'clones'...?

Post by hgm » Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:43 pm

It is often difficult to spot clones. It is easy, however, to spot clowns... :lol: :lol: :lol:

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kranium
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Re: Houdini, Fire, IvanHoe, (and Rybka?) are 'clones'...?

Post by kranium » Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:45 pm

hgm wrote:It is often difficult to spot clones. It is easy, however, to spot clowns... :lol: :lol: :lol:
And hence it begins...

bob
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Re: Houdini, Fire, IvanHoe, (and Rybka?) are 'clones'...?

Post by bob » Sun May 01, 2011 4:27 am

kranium wrote:Houdini, Fire, IvanHoe, RobboLito, etc. are all a 'clones'? (Rybka as well?)
This is absolute nonsense.
In all of the above (except Rybka), there is absolutely no evidence of wrongdoing of any kind)!
IppoLit source code is free for any and all use!
Norman, give it a rest. IP*/Robo* are _clearly_ clones of something, produced by decompiling something. Although there is no significant evidence that the "something" is Rybka, other than the original statements from Vas, it is a certainty that it was decompiled code. Everyone with any experience in programming has said the same thing. And anything derived from those, at the moment might technically be legal until the Rybka -> robolito connection is proven, but they are still derivative/clone programs (most seem to be clones since there are _very_ few modifications being made.



But wait...here, in this sad and misguided forum...anything that doesn't have a 'Crafty-like pedigree' is directly cast as a 'clone'?
It's really sad that the founding member and moderator (Bob Hyatt) has managed to saturate the Talkchess lemmings with his extreme, overbearing, and puritanical academic ideals...
Your background is not exactly stellar, but I've given you the benefit of the doubt. But you are painting yourself into a "I am a clone fan" corner slowly but surely...



The facts:
The development of IvanHoe, etc. has been ongoing for 2 years now...
the program has grown from a basic skeleton engine to a full-featured analysis tool...
they have added feature after feature... including many technical innovations.

the development includes (but not limited to):

Windows and Linux support
SMP support,
a complete bitbase solution that surpasses Nalimov EGTB,
Montecarlo analysis,
sophisticated hashing options,
compiling tracing,
Magic Bitboards,
ZugZwang detection
Large pages
Eval and Material explanation modes,
etc., etc.
the list goes on and on...

----------------------------------------
So?
Fire, IvanHoe, Houdini, Rybka,...etc.
What to do?

Duh,...how about simply labeling these programs as a 'controversial' or maybe 'suspected derivatives'?
Testing groups could simply maintain a separate list, not allowing entrance into serious tournaments...

But, why all the fuss, contempt, and ridicule?
*Because the one's crying the loudest seem to be establishment programmers seeking to discredit all other engine at any cost...
more limelight for them and their 'original' program.

Stockfish is 100% original?!
sheez, no...maybe a couple years ago.
All programs have benefited or are benefiting (or should be) from the release of IppoLit...
Komodo, Critter, Fire...and the blessed 'derivative' Stockfish' as well!

IppoLit published to the public domain the most advanced chess programming ideas ever!
a bonanza for the art/science/technology!

But the chess programming cronies (sorry - establishment) can't (or refuses to) recognize that?
Refuses to recognize the copying skills of a select group of people? That is not exactly an earth-shattering skill, now is it?

Let's see, after 2 years, IppoLit has been severely pillaged and raped by this same chess establishment...
(and especially by the 'puritanical' Talkchess programmers of 'original?' engines)
at the same time they ridicule, exile, and condemn it...!
What hypocrites!
Feel free to point out exactly what IP* ideas are in Crafty. If there are any, they are there only because they were copied _from_ Crafty...



Yes, good idea! Rape the messenger, then shoot him!

Norm
Or better yet, post nonsense and make yourself look like an idiot..

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