Houdini, Fire, IvanHoe, (and Rybka?) are 'clones'...?

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bob
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Re: Houdini, Fire, IvanHoe, (and Rybka?) are 'clones'...?

Post by bob » Sun May 01, 2011 4:28 am

kranium wrote:from Openchess.org:
http://www.open-chess.org/viewtopic.php ... 6&start=10
hyatt wrote:Clones. Derivatives. Doesn't matter. Either is just as bad (and unacceptable) as the other.
hmmm...yes I see your point,
the only good program is one with a history like Crafty.
the 1st, the one and only, the true original!

???

Well that leaves Crafty vs Fruit (with maybe Glaurung as a stand-in in case Fruit opts out?) for the 2012 world championship!
There are plenty of original programs. Just because you are incapable of writing something original doesn't mean others can't and haven't...

bob
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Re: Houdini, Fire, IvanHoe, (and Rybka?) are 'clones'...?

Post by bob » Sun May 01, 2011 4:29 am

kranium wrote:
hgm wrote:It is often difficult to spot clones. It is easy, however, to spot clowns... :lol: :lol: :lol:
And hence it begins...
I thought it was "spot on" myself. Nicely done, HGM. :)

De Vos W
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Re: Houdini, Fire, IvanHoe, (and Rybka?) are 'clones'...?

Post by De Vos W » Sun May 01, 2011 7:33 am

hgm wrote:It is often difficult to spot clones. It is easy, however, to spot clowns... :lol: :lol: :lol:
A lot of criticism is written by characters in this forum who are very academic and think it is a sign you are worthless if you are critical and make jokes, those characters are the real clowns of the Talkchess establishment. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense.

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Re: Houdini, Fire, IvanHoe, (and Rybka?) are 'clones'...?

Post by gerold » Sun May 01, 2011 1:26 pm

De Vos W wrote:
hgm wrote:It is often difficult to spot clones. It is easy, however, to spot clowns... :lol: :lol: :lol:
A lot of criticism is written by characters in this forum who are very academic and think it is a sign you are worthless if you are critical and make jokes, those characters are the real clowns of the Talkchess establishment. :lol: :lol: :lol:
O.T. Want to see some real clowns watch the Royal wedding in UK. :D

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fern
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Re: Houdini, Fire, IvanHoe, (and Rybka?) are 'clones'...?

Post by fern » Sun May 01, 2011 5:07 pm

Norma:
I know tnere is not a personal imputation againts me or nobody, but you certainly will agree that many times the post sounds like there is a conspiracy to support some guys of this place at the cost of punishing another bunch of them.
Personally I scarcely erase posts, if ever. Everybody here knows my attitude since ever. Bob also does not give much attention to minutiae. Same with the other pal here.
I still consider this place as a kind of kindergarten... Not much attention given to kids playing around.

old fern

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Harvey Williamson
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Re: Houdini, Fire, IvanHoe, (and Rybka?) are 'clones'...?

Post by Harvey Williamson » Sun May 01, 2011 9:17 pm

fern wrote:Norma:
Fern your wonderful typo has me humming this:

GOOD BYE NORMA JEAN
THOUGH I NEVER KNEW YOU AT ALL
YOU HAD THE GRACE TO HOLD YOURSELF
WHILE THOSE AROUND YOU CRAWLED

THEY CRAWLED OUT OF THE WOODWORK
AND THEY WHISPERED INTO YOUR BRAIN
THEY SET YOU ON A TREADMILL
AND THEY MADE YOU CHANGE YOUR NAME

chorus;
AND IT SEEMS TO ME YOU LIVED YOUR LIFE
LIKE A CANDLE IN THE WIND
NEVER KNOWING WHO TO CLING TO
WHEN THE RAIN SET IN
AND I WOULD HAVE LIKED TO HAVE KNOWN YOU
BUT I WAS JUST A KID
YOUR CANDLE BURNT OUT LONG BEFORE
YOUR LEGEND NEVER DID

LONELINESS WAS TOUGH
THE TOUGHEST ROLE YOU EVER PLAYED
HOLLYWOOD CREATED A SUPERSTAR
AND PAIN WAS THE PRICE YOU PAID

EVEN WHEN YOU DIED
THE PRESS STILL HOUNDED YOU
ALL THE PAPERS HAD TO SAY
WAS THAT MARILYN WAS FOUND IN THE NUDE

chorus

GOOD-BYE NORMA JEAN
THOUGH I NEVER KNEW YOU AT ALL
YOU HAD THE GRACE TO HOLD YOURSELF
WHILE THOSE AROUND YOU CRAWLED

GOOD-BYE NORMA JEAN
FROM THE YOUNG MAN IN THE TWENTY SECOND ROW
WHO SEES YOU AS SOMETHING MORE THAN SEXUAL
MORE THAN JUST OUR MARILYN MONROE

chorus

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kranium
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Re: Houdini, Fire, IvanHoe, (and Rybka?) are 'clones'...?

Post by kranium » Mon May 02, 2011 6:41 am

bob wrote: Norman, give it a rest. IP*/Robo* are _clearly_ clones of something, produced by decompiling something.
Bob...

"If" (and that's a big 'if') Ippolit is the result of 'decompiling' (as you seem to somehow know as fact):

Decompiling is not 'wrong' or 'illegal' in any way...
it is a completely legitimate form of discovery...(according to the US Supreme Court)

It's no different than taking something apart to see how it works...
(this is the epitome of human curiosity and the basis of enormous amounts of technological progress...)
It's discovering 'ideas'...it is not 'copying'!
The source code has to be recreated, and doing this is a major major task that requires a seriously skilled engineer.
(and you know that!)
bob wrote:
hgm wrote:It is often difficult to spot clones. It is easy, however, to spot clowns... :lol: :lol: :lol:
I thought it was "spot on" myself. Nicely done, HGM. :)
bob wrote: There are plenty of original programs. Just because you are incapable of writing something original doesn't mean others can't and haven't...
?
The fact that you feel the need to jump on the 'personal insult' bandwagon because I post something you disagree with is really sad...(pitiful).

Writing what conforms to your strict academic definition of an 'original' program does not interest me...
i.e. it is not the 'end all' and goal of chess programming...
my interest is working to improve existing code, pushing the envelope of chess playing programs...and I have successfully done that.

I (and many others) am not at all interested in suscribing to you narrow-minded and vain idea that the only worthwhile goal is to create something absolutely new, original, like a Hemmingway novel.
Sorry that's utter nonsense.

Besides, there are hundreds of absolutely mediocre ('crappy') and boring 'original' programs..who the hell needs another?

And to suggest I'm not capable is simply a low blow...
another of the many insults I've endured from the self-absorbed, ego-centric, puritanical, and contemptuous Talkchess establishment.

The work I've done on RobboLito, Igorrit, Fire, etc... speaks for itself.
It's unfortunate that you have no clue about (or refuse to recognize) the quality and quantity of work I've done on these (and other) now state-of-the-art programs
(all of which make Crafty look like a patzer BTW)

It seems clear that (as your career winds down), your only goal is to discredit as many programs and authors as possible in order to inflate and cement Crafty's legacy.

Norm

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Graham Banks
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Re: Houdini, Fire, IvanHoe, (and Rybka?) are 'clones'...?

Post by Graham Banks » Mon May 02, 2011 9:45 am

kranium wrote:Besides, there are hundreds of absolutely mediocre ('crappy') and boring 'original' programs..who the hell needs another?
That's a real slap in the face to any programmer who has actually made the effort to write a chess engine from scratch. :roll:
My email addresses:
gbanksnz at gmail.com
gbanksnz at yahoo.co.nz

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Re: Houdini, Fire, IvanHoe, (and Rybka?) are 'clones'...?

Post by tpetzke » Mon May 02, 2011 11:15 am

I am a programmer of one of those absolutely mediocre ('crappy') and boring 'original' programs and it exists because I wanted to prove to myself (not the world) that I'm able to create one.

And its mediocre because it takes a lot of time to understand the ideas and the theory behind all that stuff that makes at the end a chess engine and then find your own implementation for it. But that's the interesting part for me. I don't even use downloaded endgame tables because I found it much more interesting to understand the theory behind them and program an algorithm that calculates them from scratch.

Of course I also want my engine to be strong and if it wins a match it makes me proud because every bit in it was from me. As soon as I started to include code from others the engine might win only because of it and it would yield no gain for me what so ever.

So it makes me proud to be able to create an engine, others might be proud if they prove they are able to clone or modify one.

As soon as it comes to tournaments I'm not troubled with clones, because where my engine plays clones are not an issue. but I can understand the annoyance of those authors that have developed their now strong own engine over years and are now faced with modifications of the same program over and over again. It pollutes the engine ranking table somehow.

Thomas...

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Re: Houdini, Fire, IvanHoe, (and Rybka?) are 'clones'...?

Post by Sven » Mon May 02, 2011 1:21 pm

+1 !!

Maybe even +524 :-)

Sven

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