Chan Rasjid wrote:
I think there is too much of witch-hunting which is bad. Vasik did some copying which was wrong and he had been 'stoned' and so all's over for the copying that added no ELO. The fact is there are not many who could write a program near that of Rybka's though some suggest it is not too big a deal.
We are not encouraging the use of someone else's code to start with and tell otherwise nor is cut and paste encouraged; but how to write 'original' code as many have claimed copyrights to ideas and numbers.
So let them claim their program is original and a top class program.
Rasjid.
Hello Chan Rasjid,
You say that there was copying, proven copying of code that added no Elo.
What would have been the reason for doing that?
Both the copying and the fact that what was copied added no Elo I mean.
Incidentally, how do you know the Elo added per line of copied code?
Curious and curiouser....
Later.
Don't take me too seriously as I am no expert - they have spoken and you should listen to them.
I just have not much patience with all these things about clones/derivatives. I have a working chess program and I have some sense what can add elo. Vasik made the mistake of taking a short cut - not that he could not write the codes that he copied; as he claimed, ... those are standard stuff...
What he added that gave those big ELO gains probably were more 'original' than what others are willing to accept.
I agree.
Does the report indicate what original work Vas did to make Rybka stronger than all the engines for years?
I bet that original work has in the meantime been heavily copied by other engines.
Propose a new ICGA panel is installed to investgate who has plagiarized Rybka.
geots wrote:I suppose people like Bob, Theron and Zach are happy. They managed to help get rid of competition they were never smart enough to beat.
You are wrong, it doesn't take a genius anymore to make a 3000+ engine, nowadays: it takes a slow but constant decrease in moral values. Everybody can get a >3000 Elo engine by copy/pasting from public codesource. The people you named don't do that. And it takes a lot more genius to bring a genuine engine to circa 2800 all by oneself than patching together sources from various strong engine.
Vas did not get only a >3000 elo engine but he got also something that is significantly stronger than all the other programs(Rybka3 was leading by more than 100 elo when Vas released it).
It is not so easy to make something that is more than 100 elo better than other engines even without moral values and I think that it is easier to get a 2800 engine without copy/paste from other sources.
I suppose people like Bob, Theron and Zach are happy. They managed to help get rid of competition they were never smart enough to beat. On the way out, 2 things: 1. If i wanted a world champion engine, I would never be stupid enough to get anything from Crafty. Thats's like copying from VWagen to improve a Rolls Royce. Nobody is that f***ing stupid. 2. Concerning the picture in the post with Karpov and the horse.... and the explanation of the one on the "left" and the one on the "right" would have been crucial if it had been a picture of Hyatt, Zach or Christophe and the horse was turned around. One would wonder if mods are brave enough to leave this thread. My money is on chicken-shit. Rest of my money would ride on "I don't give a rats ass."
Your vile accusations against Bob, Zach, Christophe et al are reprehensible. You're talking out of you ass as usual filling the forum with a vile stench! I wouldn't bat an eye if you were banned or even sued. You've asked for it!
As for Vas, he was that stupid. Vas is a hack and I hope Fabien sues his ass.
As for the skills of Bob Hyatt you haven't a clue and if Christophe wanted the best program all he would have needed to do is take the same route Vas did and it would be better than Rybka or Houdini as he's that talented !
All you condemn, the pioneers of chess, have far more talent then a plagerist!
The earth is flat in your world. You're a fanatic.
Vas is not stupid.
The facts are that there are other programmers who started from free source code without a success(for example El-chinito is based on Crafty and did not get significantly better than Crafty and Kaissa or Patriot also never got the first place inspite of using free sources) .
We do not know what Christophe could do taking the same path as Vas
and it is not responsible to assume that he could make something stronger than Rybka at the same time(of course today with stockfish of today that is very close to Rybka's strength it should be relatively easy)
Chan Rasjid wrote:... Vasik made the mistake of taking a short cut - not that he could not write the codes that he copied; as he claimed, ... those are standard stuff...
Chan Rasjid wrote:... Vasik made the mistake of taking a short cut - not that he could not write the codes that he copied; as he claimed, ... those are standard stuff...
Rasjid.
Fruit 2.1 is "standard stuff" ?
Yes. He cut and paste standard stuff that gave little ELO but save 'commercial' time.
Michael Diosi wrote:
Hmm Loop is a clone too isn't it ?
By ICGA standards, and by the evidence I've seen in the OpenChess forum, I would think so.
1st Hiarcs (World Champion)
2nd Junior
3rd Cluster Toga
How about Toga ?
I know some people haven't forgiven Thomas Gaksch for not letting it be known that Toga was a Fruit derivative when he originally released the program. However, I think Cluster Toga would be OK by ICGA rules, if all the people who worked on that program were named. Unlike Rybka, the Cluster Toga people were not trying to hide the origins of their program.
