Is Rybka that needs ICGA or the opposite ?

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mcostalba
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Is Rybka that needs ICGA or the opposite ?

Post by mcostalba » Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:31 pm

I am in this hobby from a couple of years already and, guess what, I can't care less about this ICGA organization, I have never had a particular interest in their activities and if it was not for this big Rybka affaire probably I hardly have even heard about them.

Perhaps I am a strange kind or an exception, nevertheless in the last years I dedicated a good chunk of my free time to this hobby, not only as a programmer, but also participating in the forums and reading and writing posts and private email correspondence with many of you, nevertheless this ICGA never influenced even minimally my activities and their chief, Mr. Levy, I even didn't know who he was before this big fanfare.

OTH I very quickly came to know the existence of Rybka and his author and both where well high in the hit parade of the forum both gossip-wise and technical-wise.

So I am wondering, from all this hype who gain most in terms of visibility and advertising ?

I really don't know the reason why _now_ after many years all this come out, when, if I have read correctly, the gain between the first Rybka and the post fruit version was already many hundreds ELO points (achieved in a very short time) and so the hints of something strange where already there.

I only say that from a pure marketing / advertising point of view this Mr. Levy is really brilliant: now everybody talks about this ICGA, someone (like the author of Houdini) has promptly candidate its engine to participate in the next tournament in another brilliant move to offer ICGA another boost of visibility and get its "ethic blessing" in reward. Nice !


Really brilliant marketing people here in the chess community ! :-)

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Houdini
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Re: Is Rybka that needs ICGA or the opposite ?

Post by Houdini » Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:26 pm

mcostalba wrote:I only say that from a pure marketing / advertising point of view this Mr. Levy is really brilliant: now everybody talks about this ICGA, someone (like the author of Houdini) has promptly candidate its engine to participate in the next tournament in another brilliant move to offer ICGA another boost of visibility and get its "ethic blessing" in reward. Nice !
LOL.
Here's what I wrote in the other thread, an exact quote that includes the text to which I replied:
Houdini wrote:
georgerifkin wrote:Since Rybka is banned and AFAIK Houdini is not allowed to join, it seems that the next World Champion later this year will either Stockfish or Critter.
What's your opinion?
After the recent ICGA verdict I'm nearly tempted to participate in the coming WCCC in Tilburg .
If you interpret my post as a "prompt candidature", read again.

Robert

gerold
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Re: Is Rybka that needs ICGA or the opposite ?

Post by gerold » Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:22 am

mcostalba wrote:I am in this hobby from a couple of years already and, guess what, I can't care less about this ICGA organization, I have never had a particular interest in their activities and if it was not for this big Rybka affaire probably I hardly have even heard about them.

Perhaps I am a strange kind or an exception, nevertheless in the last years I dedicated a good chunk of my free time to this hobby, not only as a programmer, but also participating in the forums and reading and writing posts and private email correspondence with many of you, nevertheless this ICGA never influenced even minimally my activities and their chief, Mr. Levy, I even didn't know who he was before this big fanfare.

OTH I very quickly came to know the existence of Rybka and his author and both where well high in the hit parade of the forum both gossip-wise and technical-wise.

So I am wondering, from all this hype who gain most in terms of visibility and advertising ?

I really don't know the reason why _now_ after many years all this come out, when, if I have read correctly, the gain between the first Rybka and the post fruit version was already many hundreds ELO points (achieved in a very short time) and so the hints of something strange where already there.

I only say that from a pure marketing / advertising point of view this Mr. Levy is really brilliant: now everybody talks about this ICGA, someone (like the author of Houdini) has promptly candidate its engine to participate in the next tournament in another brilliant move to offer ICGA another boost of visibility and get its "ethic blessing" in reward. Nice !


Really brilliant marketing people here in the chess community ! :-)
I don't see this helping the ICGA any. Maybe other people will start a new world chess contest and allow a lot of engines in that the ICGA does not allow in.
As for as Rybka is concerned will just have to wait and see what happens. If CB sells drop on Rybka they may drop it. If there is a law suit from either side things could change. In the mean time Rybka is still selling and most of the rating list are still testing Rybka. So this indicates that people selling and people testing Rybka is not taking the ICGA ruling very serious.

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hgm
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Re: Is Rybka that needs ICGA or the opposite ?

Post by hgm » Mon Jul 04, 2011 2:20 pm

For one, it was not intended to help ICGA. It was intended to do justice.

And some people take ICGA serious enough to want to participate in the WCCC. Errr... Wasn't Rybka one of those?

Open-source top engines are predictably very detrimental to serious competitions. A competition without the strongest engines is to many not very interesting. On the other hand, a competition with the 200 strongest engines authored by 200 nitwits that would not know a mini from a max would also not be very interesting. A tiny difference is that the first is mainly uninteresting to consumers from which ICGA would not profit in any way one way or the other. While in the second case, it would be uninteresting to real Chess programmers, which make up the body and soul of ICGA.

So it seems the choice is easily made. If 1000 not-good-for-anything consumers have to be pissed of to please one genuine programmer, the choice is still easily made!

Uri Blass
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Re: Is Rybka that needs ICGA or the opposite ?

Post by Uri Blass » Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:51 pm

hgm wrote:For one, it was not intended to help ICGA. It was intended to do justice.

And some people take ICGA serious enough to want to participate in the WCCC. Errr... Wasn't Rybka one of those?

Open-source top engines are predictably very detrimental to serious competitions. A competition without the strongest engines is to many not very interesting. On the other hand, a competition with the 200 strongest engines authored by 200 nitwits that would not know a mini from a max would also not be very interesting. A tiny difference is that the first is mainly uninteresting to consumers from which ICGA would not profit in any way one way or the other. While in the second case, it would be uninteresting to real Chess programmers, which make up the body and soul of ICGA.

So it seems the choice is easily made. If 1000 not-good-for-anything consumers have to be pissed of to please one genuine programmer, the choice is still easily made!
Justice?
I am not sure if all the copyright rule is fair for chess programs.
I think that it blocks progress in computer chess.

Saying that you can use ideas but not use code is misleading
because even with no copy and paste from other programs I see no way to use all the good ideas that are in some well tested chess programs without getting almost equivalent code and note that numbers in the evaluation function are also ideas and if your program overevaluate passed pawns it means that the numbers that you chose for evaluating passed pawns are too big relative to the correct numbers and choosing too big numbers is a bad idea.

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mclane
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Re: Is Rybka that needs ICGA or the opposite ?

Post by mclane » Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:47 pm

i don't know when you began with computerchess. i did in 1978.
in times i began, anybody knew david levy.
What seems like a fairy tale today may be reality tomorrow.
Here we have a fairy tale of the day after tomorrow....

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Peter Skinner
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Re: Is Rybka that needs ICGA or the opposite ?

Post by Peter Skinner » Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:22 pm

Houdini wrote: LOL.
Here's what I wrote in the other thread, an exact quote that includes the text to which I replied:
Houdini wrote: After the recent ICGA verdict I'm nearly tempted to participate in the coming WCCC in Tilburg .
If you interpret my post as a "prompt candidature", read again.

Robert
You can be tempted all you want, but the recent Rybka ruling definitely puts you on the outside looking in.

If I was going to the event, I would challenge your code before you got off the plane :) Hell, I would have it challenged as soon as I saw you enter.

I would bet my left testicle to science that your code isn't original.

Peter
I got kicked out of Chapters because I moved all the Bible's to the fiction section.

Roger Brown
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Re: Is Rybka that needs ICGA or the opposite ?

Post by Roger Brown » Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:53 pm

Peter Skinner wrote: You can be tempted all you want, but the recent Rybka ruling definitely puts you on the outside looking in.

If I was going to the event, I would challenge your code before you got off the plane :) Hell, I would have it challenged as soon as I saw you enter.

I would bet my left testicle to science that your code isn't original.

Peter


Hello Peter,

Come on, be a man, don't leave yourself with any insurance, bet the whole thing!

Talk about conviction....

:-)

Later.

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Graham Banks
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Re: Is Rybka that needs ICGA or the opposite ?

Post by Graham Banks » Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:37 am

Roger Brown wrote:
Peter Skinner wrote: You can be tempted all you want, but the recent Rybka ruling definitely puts you on the outside looking in.

If I was going to the event, I would challenge your code before you got off the plane :) Hell, I would have it challenged as soon as I saw you enter.

I would bet my left testicle to science that your code isn't original.

Peter


Hello Peter,

Come on, be a man, don't leave yourself with any insurance, bet the whole thing!

Talk about conviction....

:-)

Later.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
gbanksnz at gmail.com

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Romy
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Re: Is Rybka that needs ICGA or the opposite ?

Post by Romy » Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:12 am

Rybka that needs ICGA? Rybka to need ICGA like (small) Fish to need Bicycle.

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