In Summary

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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garybelton
Posts: 175
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:08 pm

In Summary

Post by garybelton » Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:50 pm

My summary, is:

1. Copying code is not ok
2. Copying ideas is ok
3. Copying code is called plagiarism
4. Copying ideas is not called plagiarism
5. All chess engine authors copy ideas, but because of (4) they are not plagiarists

The evidence from the ICGA panel looks very strong for there being copied Crafty code in an early Rybka that entered a CCT event.

Rybka author clearly should not have entered this engine into the CCT event. Rybka author was stupid not to rewrite the copied code.

Because of the Crafty code in early Rybka and because of a similar set of features in Rybka 1.0 Beta thru Rybaka 2.3.2 to Fruit 2.1, it is suspected (but not 100% proven) that Fruit code is in those Rybkas that participated in the 2007 and 2008 World Championships, but probably the 2009 and 2010 Rybka entries are clean.

So the crime is .. stupidity, or possibly laziness on the part of the Rybka author. The Rybka author should have given more credit to those he copied ideas from, and he should have rewritten the code that he copied so that it became "original".

On the other hand, in his favor the Rybka author raised the existing chess bar by +300 Elo with his own and Larry Kaufman's ideas (and got themselves hacked for doing so).

During the ICGA investigation the Rybka author did not defend himself.

It is not known how much copied code is in other closed source engines that participated in CCT or ICGA events, but we can be sure that there are lots of copied ideas in them.

Sean Evans
Posts: 1777
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:58 pm
Location: Canada

Re: In Summary

Post by Sean Evans » Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:48 pm

garybelton wrote: So the crime is .. stupidity, or possibly laziness on the part of the Rybka author.
Or he wanted a WCCC winner in as short a time as possible to make a living from computer chess...

Terry McCracken
Posts: 15853
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:16 am
Location: Canada

Re: In Summary

Post by Terry McCracken » Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:22 am

Romy wrote:
garybelton wrote:Rybka author clearly should not have entered this engine into the CCT event.
Rybka author was stupid not to rewrite the copied code.
1)Wrong, why he should not?
2)Irrelevant as there was no significant copied code.
the 2009 and 2010 Rybka entries are clean.
Totally clean. 2008 was 99,9% clean, or 100% if you count only relevants.
So the crime is ..
Be careful your words.
During the ICGA investigation the Rybka author did not defend himself.
Kangaroo court of noncompetence, why waste time, let fool bark (baboon-sound), but later sue those who have richest ex-brother-in-law.

Story only just started.
You're about as bright as a total eclipse. I thought they banned this handle?
Terry McCracken

garybelton
Posts: 175
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:08 pm

Re: In Summary

Post by garybelton » Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:51 am

Actually I may have been wrong about (4), Wikipedia has this to say about the term plagiarism:

"Plagiarism is defined in dictionaries as the "wrongful appropriation," "close imitation," or "purloining and publication" of another author's "language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions," and the representation of them as one's own original work"

Looking at some UCI tags ...

Critter Chess v1.2 64-bit
By Richard Vida, Slovakia

Fire 2.0 xTreme x64
by Kranium, based on Ippolit
compiled by Peterpan
Jun 26 2011 22:47:23

id name Rybka 3
id author Vasik Rajlich, Larry Kaufman

id name Komodo64 2.03 JA
id author Don Dailey, Larry Kaufman

HIARCS by Mark John Uniacke
Copyright (c) 1992-2010 Mark Uniacke, Applied Computer Concepts Ltd. All rights
reserved.

id name Deep Shredder 12 x64
id author Stefan Meyer-Kahlen

id name Deep Junior 12.5.0.3 UCI
id author Amir Ban / Shay Bushinsky

Stockfish 2.1.1 JA 64bit by Tord Romstad, Marco Costalba and Joona Kiiski

I don't see the full attribution of ideas. Engine authors should a) get the Wikipedia definition corrected or b) admit that they are all plagiarists. I see no other options.

User avatar
Romy
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:39 pm
Location: Bucharest (Romania)

Re: In Summary

Post by Romy » Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:15 am

garybelton wrote:Engine authors should a) get the Wikipedia definition corrected or b) admit that they are all plagiarists. I see no other options.
Correct.

Now see UCI tag for Crafty.

Roger Brown
Posts: 782
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:22 pm

Re: In Summary

Post by Roger Brown » Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:02 am

garybelton wrote:Actually I may have been wrong about (4), Wikipedia has this to say about the term plagiarism:

"Plagiarism is defined in dictionaries as the "wrongful appropriation," "close imitation," or "purloining and publication" of another author's "language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions," and the representation of them as one's own original work"

Looking at some UCI tags ...

Critter Chess v1.2 64-bit
By Richard Vida, Slovakia

Fire 2.0 xTreme x64
by Kranium, based on Ippolit
compiled by Peterpan
Jun 26 2011 22:47:23

id name Rybka 3
id author Vasik Rajlich, Larry Kaufman

id name Komodo64 2.03 JA
id author Don Dailey, Larry Kaufman

HIARCS by Mark John Uniacke
Copyright (c) 1992-2010 Mark Uniacke, Applied Computer Concepts Ltd. All rights
reserved.

id name Deep Shredder 12 x64
id author Stefan Meyer-Kahlen

id name Deep Junior 12.5.0.3 UCI
id author Amir Ban / Shay Bushinsky

Stockfish 2.1.1 JA 64bit by Tord Romstad, Marco Costalba and Joona Kiiski

I don't see the full attribution of ideas. Engine authors should a) get the Wikipedia definition corrected or b) admit that they are all plagiarists. I see no other options.


Hello Gary,

The full attribution of ideas meaning what exactly?

What is that you are expecting to see in the UCI id tag? What would these authors above be plagiarising?

Later.

Terry McCracken
Posts: 15853
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:16 am
Location: Canada

Re: In Summary

Post by Terry McCracken » Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:22 am

geots wrote:
Roger Brown wrote:
garybelton wrote:Actually I may have been wrong about (4), Wikipedia has this to say about the term plagiarism:

"Plagiarism is defined in dictionaries as the "wrongful appropriation," "close imitation," or "purloining and publication" of another author's "language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions," and the representation of them as one's own original work"

Looking at some UCI tags ...

Critter Chess v1.2 64-bit
By Richard Vida, Slovakia

Fire 2.0 xTreme x64
by Kranium, based on Ippolit
compiled by Peterpan
Jun 26 2011 22:47:23

id name Rybka 3
id author Vasik Rajlich, Larry Kaufman

id name Komodo64 2.03 JA
id author Don Dailey, Larry Kaufman

HIARCS by Mark John Uniacke
Copyright (c) 1992-2010 Mark Uniacke, Applied Computer Concepts Ltd. All rights
reserved.

id name Deep Shredder 12 x64
id author Stefan Meyer-Kahlen

id name Deep Junior 12.5.0.3 UCI
id author Amir Ban / Shay Bushinsky

Stockfish 2.1.1 JA 64bit by Tord Romstad, Marco Costalba and Joona Kiiski

I don't see the full attribution of ideas. Engine authors should a) get the Wikipedia definition corrected or b) admit that they are all plagiarists. I see no other options.


Hello Gary,

The full attribution of ideas meaning what exactly?

What is that you are expecting to see in the UCI id tag? What would these authors above be plagiarising?

Later.

Who is deleting Carol's threads. I count 3 or 4 someone got rid of. He speaks only the truth. The forum can delete what they dont agree with?
Good Greif....and always before elections. :roll:
Terry McCracken

bob
Posts: 20916
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: In Summary

Post by bob » Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:15 am

Romy wrote:
garybelton wrote:Engine authors should a) get the Wikipedia definition corrected or b) admit that they are all plagiarists. I see no other options.
Correct.

Now see UCI tag for Crafty.
What does that mean? Crafty has no UCI code and doesn't support the UCI protocol.

bob
Posts: 20916
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: In Summary

Post by bob » Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:16 am

geots wrote:
Roger Brown wrote:
garybelton wrote:Actually I may have been wrong about (4), Wikipedia has this to say about the term plagiarism:

"Plagiarism is defined in dictionaries as the "wrongful appropriation," "close imitation," or "purloining and publication" of another author's "language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions," and the representation of them as one's own original work"

Looking at some UCI tags ...

Critter Chess v1.2 64-bit
By Richard Vida, Slovakia

Fire 2.0 xTreme x64
by Kranium, based on Ippolit
compiled by Peterpan
Jun 26 2011 22:47:23

id name Rybka 3
id author Vasik Rajlich, Larry Kaufman

id name Komodo64 2.03 JA
id author Don Dailey, Larry Kaufman

HIARCS by Mark John Uniacke
Copyright (c) 1992-2010 Mark Uniacke, Applied Computer Concepts Ltd. All rights
reserved.

id name Deep Shredder 12 x64
id author Stefan Meyer-Kahlen

id name Deep Junior 12.5.0.3 UCI
id author Amir Ban / Shay Bushinsky

Stockfish 2.1.1 JA 64bit by Tord Romstad, Marco Costalba and Joona Kiiski

I don't see the full attribution of ideas. Engine authors should a) get the Wikipedia definition corrected or b) admit that they are all plagiarists. I see no other options.


Hello Gary,

The full attribution of ideas meaning what exactly?

What is that you are expecting to see in the UCI id tag? What would these authors above be plagiarising?

Later.

Who is deleting Carol's threads. I count 3 or 4 someone got rid of. He speaks only the truth. The forum can delete what they dont agree with?
I have asked the same question. Apparently something is happening. I have been away most of the afternoon and evening and some of the threads seem to be somehow fractured. Not that "Carol" is offering anything of substance that I can see.

bob
Posts: 20916
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: In Summary

Post by bob » Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:23 am

Also seems to be a full moon, wolfbane is blooming, and who knows what other sinister signs are active. I had better not find CW inside my refrigerator with a very bright light, growling or whatever, however. I have a fix for that problem. :)

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