Was this really a draw?

Audmeister · Post by **Audmeister** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:20 pm

Critter seemed to like the position but it seemed that it was somewhat of a drawish position.

I am not a great player, but at move 91, it looks like a draw to a human's perspective.

Code: Select all

&#91;Event "scct8"&#93;
&#91;Site "?"&#93;
&#91;Date "2011.08.23"&#93;
&#91;Round "1.10"&#93;
&#91;White "LittleMaster H15a"&#93;
&#91;Black "TopTier Critter 1.2"&#93;
&#91;Result "1/2-1/2"&#93;
&#91;ECO "B90"&#93;
&#91;PlyCount "361"&#93;
&#91;EventDate "2011.08.21"&#93;
&#91;EventType "tourn"&#93;

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. f3 e5 7. Nb3 Be6 8. Be3
h5 9. Nd5 Bxd5 10. exd5 g6 11. Be2 Nbd7 12. Qd2 Bg7 13. O-O-O b5 14. Kb1 Nb6
15. Na5 O-O 16. Nc6 Qc7 17. Bxb6 Qxb6 18. Bd3 Kh7 19. Be4 Bh6 20. Qb4 Qc7 21.
Rhg1 Kg7 22. g3 Be3 23. Rge1 Bc5 24. Qd2 Qd7 25. a3 Ng8 26. Qc3 f5 27. Bd3 Bb6
28. a4 Nf6 29. Bf1 bxa4 30. Bc4 Bc5 31. Qa5 a3 32. b4 Qb7 33. c3 Bb6 34. Qxa3
a5 35. bxa5 Bxa5+ 36. Kc2 Bc7 37. Qb4 Qb6 38. Re2 Nd7 39. Rb1 f4 40. Rf1 Qc5
41. Ree1 Bb6 42. Re4 fxg3 43. hxg3 Ra3 44. Qxc5 Nxc5 45. Ree1 Na4 46. Bb3 g5
47. Bxa4 Rxa4 48. Kb3 Rfa8 49. Re2 h4 50. Rg2 Kf6 51. gxh4 gxh4 52. Rh1 Rf4 53.
Rh3 Bc5 54. Rgh2 Bg1 55. Rg2 Bb6 56. Nb4 Rb8 57. Nc6 Rf8 58. Nb4 Ba5 59. Nc6
Bd8 60. Rg1 Bb6 61. Rg2 Bc5 62. Kc2 Re8 63. Rgh2 Bg1 64. Rg2 Bb6 65. Rgh2 Kg5
66. Rg2+ Kh6 67. Kb3 Bc5 68. Kc2 Ra8 69. Kd3 Raf8 70. Ke2 Kh5 71. Rg7 Ra8 72.
Kd3 Bf2 73. Nb4 Kh6 74. Rg2 Bb6 75. Nc6 Re8 76. Kc2 Bd8 77. Nb4 Bg5 78. Nd3 Ra4
79. Nb4 Rc8 80. Rg4 Kh5 81. Kb3 Ra5 82. Rc4 Rxc4 83. Kxc4 Ra1 84. Nd3 Be3 85.
Kb5 Rd1 86. Kc4 Rg1 87. Kb5 Rg3 88. Rxg3 hxg3 89. Ne1 Bd2 90. Ng2 Bxc3 91. Kc4
Bd4 92. Kd3 Kg5 93. Kc2 Kf5 94. Kd2 e4 95. Ke2 Ke5 96. Nh4 Kxd5 97. Ng6 Bc5 98.
Nh4 e3 99. Kd3 Ke6 100. Ke2 d5 101. Kd3 Ke5 102. Ng2 d4 103. Ke2 Kf5 104. Nh4+
Kg5 105. Ng2 Bb4 106. Kd3 Bc3 107. Ke2 Kf5 108. Nh4+ Kf4 109. Ng2+ Ke5 110. Nh4
Ba5 111. Ng6+ Ke6 112. Nf4+ Kf5 113. Ng2 Bb4 114. Nh4+ Kg5 115. Ng2 Bc3 116.
Kd3 Kf5 117. Ke2 Bd2 118. Nh4+ Kf4 119. Ng2+ Kg5 120. Kd3 Kf5 121. Ke2 Ke5 122.
Kd3 Bc3 123. Ke2 Bb4 124. Kd3 Be7 125. Ke2 Bd8 126. Ne1 Ba5 127. Ng2 Bb6 128.
Kd3 Kf5 129. Ne1 Ba5 130. Ng2 Kg5 131. Ke2 Bc7 132. Kd3 Bb6 133. Ke4 Ba5 134.
Kd3 Bd2 135. Ke2 Kf6 136. Nf4 Ke5 137. Ng6+ Kd6 138. Nf4 Bc3 139. Ng2 Kd5 140.
Kd3 Ba5 141. Nh4 Bd8 142. Ng2 Ke5 143. Ne1 Ba5 144. Ng2 Bc7 145. Ne1 Kf6 146.
Ng2 Bb6 147. Ke4 Bc5 148. Kd3 Bb4 149. Nf4 Kf5 150. Ne2 Bc3 151. Nxg3+ Kf4 152.
Ne2+ Kxf3 153. Ng1+ Kg2 154. Ne2 Bb2 155. Ke4 Kf2 156. Kd3 Kf3 157. Ng1+ Kg2
158. Ne2 Kf2 159. Nf4 Ba1 160. Nh3+ Kf1 161. Nf4 Bc3 162. Ne2 Kf2 163. Nf4 Kf3
164. Ne2 Ba1 165. Ng1+ Kg2 166. Ne2 Kf2 167. Nc1 Bc3 168. Ne2 Ke1 169. Ng3 Bb2
170. Nh5 Kd1 171. Nf4 Ba1 172. Ne2 Ke1 173. Ng1 Bb2 174. Ne2 Kf1 175. Ng3+ Kg1
176. Ne2+ Kh2 177. Ke4 Kh3 178. Kf4 Ba1 179. Kf3 Kh2 180. Ng3 Bc3 181. Nf5
1/2-1/2

zullil · Post by **zullil** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:13 pm

[D]8/8/3p4/1K1Pp2k/8/2b2Pp1/6N1/8 w - -

Position after Black's 90th move.

Audmeister · Post by **Audmeister** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:25 pm

Thank you Louis, didn't know how to do that

Both Houdini and Critter had a score favoring black with +4 eval or more

Ferdy · Post by **Ferdy** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:31 pm

Audmeister wrote:Critter seemed to like the position but it seemed that it was somewhat of a drawish position.

I am not a great player, but at move 91, it looks like a draw to a human's perspective.

Code: Select all

&#91;Event "scct8"&#93;
&#91;Site "?"&#93;
&#91;Date "2011.08.23"&#93;
&#91;Round "1.10"&#93;
&#91;White "LittleMaster H15a"&#93;
&#91;Black "TopTier Critter 1.2"&#93;
&#91;Result "1/2-1/2"&#93;
&#91;ECO "B90"&#93;
&#91;PlyCount "361"&#93;
&#91;EventDate "2011.08.21"&#93;
&#91;EventType "tourn"&#93;

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. f3 e5 7. Nb3 Be6 8. Be3
h5 9. Nd5 Bxd5 10. exd5 g6 11. Be2 Nbd7 12. Qd2 Bg7 13. O-O-O b5 14. Kb1 Nb6
15. Na5 O-O 16. Nc6 Qc7 17. Bxb6 Qxb6 18. Bd3 Kh7 19. Be4 Bh6 20. Qb4 Qc7 21.
Rhg1 Kg7 22. g3 Be3 23. Rge1 Bc5 24. Qd2 Qd7 25. a3 Ng8 26. Qc3 f5 27. Bd3 Bb6
28. a4 Nf6 29. Bf1 bxa4 30. Bc4 Bc5 31. Qa5 a3 32. b4 Qb7 33. c3 Bb6 34. Qxa3
a5 35. bxa5 Bxa5+ 36. Kc2 Bc7 37. Qb4 Qb6 38. Re2 Nd7 39. Rb1 f4 40. Rf1 Qc5
41. Ree1 Bb6 42. Re4 fxg3 43. hxg3 Ra3 44. Qxc5 Nxc5 45. Ree1 Na4 46. Bb3 g5
47. Bxa4 Rxa4 48. Kb3 Rfa8 49. Re2 h4 50. Rg2 Kf6 51. gxh4 gxh4 52. Rh1 Rf4 53.
Rh3 Bc5 54. Rgh2 Bg1 55. Rg2 Bb6 56. Nb4 Rb8 57. Nc6 Rf8 58. Nb4 Ba5 59. Nc6
Bd8 60. Rg1 Bb6 61. Rg2 Bc5 62. Kc2 Re8 63. Rgh2 Bg1 64. Rg2 Bb6 65. Rgh2 Kg5
66. Rg2+ Kh6 67. Kb3 Bc5 68. Kc2 Ra8 69. Kd3 Raf8 70. Ke2 Kh5 71. Rg7 Ra8 72.
Kd3 Bf2 73. Nb4 Kh6 74. Rg2 Bb6 75. Nc6 Re8 76. Kc2 Bd8 77. Nb4 Bg5 78. Nd3 Ra4
79. Nb4 Rc8 80. Rg4 Kh5 81. Kb3 Ra5 82. Rc4 Rxc4 83. Kxc4 Ra1 84. Nd3 Be3 85.
Kb5 Rd1 86. Kc4 Rg1 87. Kb5 Rg3 88. Rxg3 hxg3 89. Ne1 Bd2 90. Ng2 Bxc3 91. Kc4
Bd4 92. Kd3 Kg5 93. Kc2 Kf5 94. Kd2 e4 95. Ke2 Ke5 96. Nh4 Kxd5 97. Ng6 Bc5 98.
Nh4 e3 99. Kd3 Ke6 100. Ke2 d5 101. Kd3 Ke5 102. Ng2 d4 103. Ke2 Kf5 104. Nh4+
Kg5 105. Ng2 Bb4 106. Kd3 Bc3 107. Ke2 Kf5 108. Nh4+ Kf4 109. Ng2+ Ke5 110. Nh4
Ba5 111. Ng6+ Ke6 112. Nf4+ Kf5 113. Ng2 Bb4 114. Nh4+ Kg5 115. Ng2 Bc3 116.
Kd3 Kf5 117. Ke2 Bd2 118. Nh4+ Kf4 119. Ng2+ Kg5 120. Kd3 Kf5 121. Ke2 Ke5 122.
Kd3 Bc3 123. Ke2 Bb4 124. Kd3 Be7 125. Ke2 Bd8 126. Ne1 Ba5 127. Ng2 Bb6 128.
Kd3 Kf5 129. Ne1 Ba5 130. Ng2 Kg5 131. Ke2 Bc7 132. Kd3 Bb6 133. Ke4 Ba5 134.
Kd3 Bd2 135. Ke2 Kf6 136. Nf4 Ke5 137. Ng6+ Kd6 138. Nf4 Bc3 139. Ng2 Kd5 140.
Kd3 Ba5 141. Nh4 Bd8 142. Ng2 Ke5 143. Ne1 Ba5 144. Ng2 Bc7 145. Ne1 Kf6 146.
Ng2 Bb6 147. Ke4 Bc5 148. Kd3 Bb4 149. Nf4 Kf5 150. Ne2 Bc3 151. Nxg3+ Kf4 152.
Ne2+ Kxf3 153. Ng1+ Kg2 154. Ne2 Bb2 155. Ke4 Kf2 156. Kd3 Kf3 157. Ng1+ Kg2
158. Ne2 Kf2 159. Nf4 Ba1 160. Nh3+ Kf1 161. Nf4 Bc3 162. Ne2 Kf2 163. Nf4 Kf3
164. Ne2 Ba1 165. Ng1+ Kg2 166. Ne2 Kf2 167. Nc1 Bc3 168. Ne2 Ke1 169. Ng3 Bb2
170. Nh5 Kd1 171. Nf4 Ba1 172. Ne2 Ke1 173. Ng1 Bb2 174. Ne2 Kf1 175. Ng3+ Kg1
176. Ne2+ Kh2 177. Ke4 Kh3 178. Kf4 Ba1 179. Kf3 Kh2 180. Ng3 Bc3 181. Nf5
1/2-1/2

It seems there is a forced win after move 91 but before move 98. The 98 ... e3 was a blunder.

zullil · Post by **zullil** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:35 pm

Audmeister wrote:Thank you Louis, didn't know how to do that

Both Houdini and Critter had a score favoring black with +4 eval or more

Here's what Critter-1.2.1 (8 threads) is showing (though I haven't studied the line yet):

Code: Select all

33/71  18&#58;26 13500545237 12198788  -4.55 Kc4 Bd4 Kd3 Kg5 Ke2 Bf2 Kd2 Kf5 Kd3 Bd4 Kd2 Bb6 Ke2 e4 Ne1 Bf2 Ng2 Ke5 fxe4 Kxe4 Nh4 Kxd5 Kf3 Kd4 Nf5+ Kc5 Kg2 d5 Nh4 d4 Nf3 d3 Kf1 Kd6 Nd2 Ke5 Kg2 Be1 Nc4+ Ke4 Kf1 Kd4 Nb2 d2 Nd1 Kd3 Kg2 Bf2 Kf3 Kc2 Ke2 g2

parrish · Post by **parrish** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:52 am

97. ... Kc4! is winning for Black.

parrish · Post by **parrish** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:59 am

parrish wrote:97. ... Kc4! is winning for Black.

Even the simple 97. ... exf3 or even later at 98. ... exf3 is still winning for Black.

zullil · Post by **zullil** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:09 am

parrish wrote:97. ... Kc4! is winning for Black.

Do you mean 97. ... Kf4 ?

parrish · Post by **parrish** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:26 am

zullil wrote:
parrish wrote:97. ... Kc4! is winning for Black.

Do you mean 97. ... Kf4 ?

No. 97. ... Kf4? is not even a legal move, but 97. ... Kc4!! is a WONDERFUL move!

zullil · Post by **zullil** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:31 am

parrish wrote:
zullil wrote:
parrish wrote:97. ... Kc4! is winning for Black.

Do you mean 97. ... Kf4 ?
No. 97. ... Kf4? is not even a legal move, but 97. ... Kc4!! is a WONDERFUL move!

I see---you're referring to Black's 97th move in the original game. Since you replied to my post, I thought you were following the line suggested by Critter.

[D]8/8/3p2N1/3k4/3bp3/5Pp1/4K3/8 b - - 1 97

Kc4!!

Was this really a draw?

Was this really a draw?

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