Fwd: Open letter to the CSVN

[geots]

Hi Thomas,
I consider Vas to be a programmer and not a hacker / cloner.

I think that there are enough original parts in Rybka to consider Vas to be a programmer(same for Robert Houdart).

I think that the case of Rybka is clearly in the grey area that means that there is no agreement between chess programmers if Vas is quilty.

I did not investigate the evidence but I understand that some programmers like Ed of Rebel and Chris of CStal read the evidence and it did not convince them that Vas is quilty.

It is not something clear like other cases(for example all agree that the similiarity between Toga and Fruit is bigger than the similiarity between Rybka and Fruit).

Ed and Chris lack a great deal in terms of honesty. Ed started questioning the data by saying "I still believe Vas to be guilty." Now he is not questioning the data, he is questioning the motives of the panel, ICGA and programmers. They've found NOTHING wrong with the evidence, to date. Right now it is more personal than factual...

Be careful. It would be in your best interests not to get into a character debate with them- and you should be really careful about bringing honesty into any discussion.

Let me add that generally if more than a few people are involved in an issue, you end up with a train wreck. That was proven recently. So that is the reason I have been in touch with Cock numerous times lately. I knew nothing of their group, only that the programmers who signed the open-letter to them were critical of their decisions concerning the Rybka issue. And also critical of the way they have handled past issues.

If the "open-letter guys" are that critical of them, it's a given they are making some good decisions and doing a hell of a good job at whatever they do. That peaked my interest.

[Frank Quisinsky]

Sorry, Stefan Meyer-Kahlen I believe and Theo van der Storm checked all important parts of Ruffian sources before we win the tournament in Leiden. Absolutly clear opinion, no clone and nothing to do with Crafty or other free sources. Theo public his opinion in these times. Furthermore, PerOla sent this parts to two other persons after Vincent comes with such a story. I know, you and Vincent discuss about in TalkChess. No sorry from Vincent later. Sources from Ruffian are checked and clean ... bad Bob ... without any proof and after the programs was checked you comes today again which such a story!

Robert, you have really such information?
Your informations because Bionic, what you wrote yesterday, are also wrong. You are meaning Bionic Impact, the version, better complete other program, which played in Leiden with Crafty SMP code without your permission. Bionic is an other engine! Bionic and Bionic Impact isn't the same. Later Hans Secelle help with Ant. Ant by Tom Vijlbrief and Hans is for sure also a clone of Crafty.

You have a big problem Bob.
Honest: Each alpha/beta engine is a clone!
That is the truth and about his one you should thinking about it.

You have to start the chain of causation on the right position and not on a position you like! I have a very high opinion about your persons and all what you do but more and more, with new discuss to this topic you lost it. From yourself I await a bit more as to give other programmer the information that they have to blocked the best organize tourney we have.

I await an sorry!

[geots]

Hi Thomas,
I consider Vas to be a programmer and not a hacker / cloner.

I think that there are enough original parts in Rybka to consider Vas to be a programmer(same for Robert Houdart).

I think that the case of Rybka is clearly in the grey area that means that there is no agreement between chess programmers if Vas is quilty.

I did not investigate the evidence but I understand that some programmers like Ed of Rebel and Chris of CStal read the evidence and it did not convince them that Vas is quilty.

It is not something clear like other cases(for example all agree that the similiarity between Toga and Fruit is bigger than the similiarity between Rybka and Fruit).

Ed and Chris lack a great deal in terms of honesty. Ed started questioning the data by saying "I still believe Vas to be guilty." Now he is not questioning the data, he is questioning the motives of the panel, ICGA and programmers. They've found NOTHING wrong with the evidence, to date. Right now it is more personal than factual...

Be careful. It would be in your best interests not to get into a character debate with them- and you should be really careful about bringing honesty into any discussion.

Let me add that generally if more than a few people are involved in an issue, you end up with a train wreck. That was proven recently. So that is the reason I have been in touch with Cock numerous times lately. I knew nothing of their group, only that the programmers who signed the open-letter to them were critical of their decisions concerning the Rybka issue. And also critical of the way they have handled past issues.

If the "open-letter guys" are that critical of them, it's a given they are making some good decisions and doing a hell of a good job at whatever they do. That peaked my interest.

Let me rephrase the last statement: If the "open-letter guys" are that critical of CSVN, then Cock & CSVN are obviously making good decisions and doing a hell of a good job at whatever they do. That peaked my interest.


BTW, I believe their upcoming tournament is going to have a section for Dedicated units. To me that would be the most interesting part of the 2 days.

[Frank Quisinsky]

Ant by Tom Vijlbrief and Hans is for sure also a clone of Crafty.

... think so after your opinion ... if you read Hans Secelle.
Ant is of course not a clone!

We should power the good things we have and we should never use officials tourney for our own activities. Not today and not in 100 years!

[Frank Quisinsky]

NO, to late!

all sources from the OPEN LETTERS programmers are now to check. This group of programmers can not start such things without to give here own sources for a check.

THIS IS absolutlely clear!
Persons which say A have to say B too and in this case they have to say C and D.

Please no burning of witches again.
But perhaps different computer chess people like the middle eges.

[Graham Banks]

Ant by Tom Vijlbrief and Hans is for sure also a clone of Crafty.

... think so after your opinion ... if you read Hans Secelle.
Ant is of course not a clone!

We should power the good things we have and we should never use officials tourney for our own activities. Not today and not in 100 years!

Would be good to see a new version of Ant.

[Roger Brown]

You have a big problem Bob.
Honest: Each alpha/beta engine is a clone!
That is the truth and about his one you should thinking about it.

Hello Frank,

This is a bit of a nonsense you know.

What next - every book written is a clone of the other because they use the same words? Every car is a clone of the other because they have an engine and four wheels? Every person is a clone of the other because they have the same internal organs?

It is not the truth, no matter how many silly posts you make repeating it.

In fact I argue that statements like these practically ensure that a useful, working definition will be a long time in coming....

Later.

[gerold]

You have a big problem Bob.
Honest: Each alpha/beta engine is a clone!
That is the truth and about his one you should thinking about it.

Just look at the top 10 on rating list and you will see what a clone is.
Pretty clear what a clone is.

Best,
Gerold.



Hello Frank,

This is a bit of a nonsense you know.

What next - every book written is a clone of the other because they use the same words? Every car is a clone of the other because they have an engine and four wheels? Every person is a clone of the other because they have the same internal organs?

It is not the truth, no matter how many silly posts you make repeating it.

In fact I argue that statements like these practically ensure that a useful, working definition will be a long time in coming....

Later.

[gerold]

You have a big problem Bob.
Honest: Each alpha/beta engine is a clone!
That is the truth and about his one you should thinking about it.

Just look at the top 10 on rating list and you will see what a clone is.
Pretty clear what a clone is.

Best,
Gerold.



Hello Frank,

This is a bit of a nonsense you know.

What next - every book written is a clone of the other because they use the same words? Every car is a clone of the other because they have an engine and four wheels? Every person is a clone of the other because they have the same internal organs?

It is not the truth, no matter how many silly posts you make repeating it.

In fact I argue that statements like these practically ensure that a useful, working definition will be a long time in coming....

Later.

I have been testing these engines for 15 years. It is clear to me that the top 10 engines on most rating list are clones of Fruit and Crafty.

[Rebel]

Ed and Chris lack a great deal in terms of honesty. Ed started questioning the data by saying "I still believe Vas to be guilty." Now he is not questioning the data, he is questioning the motives of the panel, ICGA and programmers. They've found NOTHING wrong with the evidence, to date. Right now it is more personal than factual...

You should not call people dishonest and then start being dishonest yourself by saying we found nothing wrong, no good logic

A summarizing of what is wrong with the evidence:

1. PST's -> debunked
2. Order in EVAL -> missing
3. EVAL -> going through them one by one, so far all debunked.
3. The panel never checked the BB and Zach documents on an assembler level for correctness.

What Zach, Mark Watkins researched was the Rybka chess program. With the "Vas is guilty" already branded in their minds they found zillions of traces of "a" chess program doing all the same things other (good) programs also do. Unfortunately they called all these traces Fruit. Classic case of a tunnel vision.

I am not going to defend myself here on CCC, I am at Rybka forum in case any programmer is interested in the debate, just wanted to correct Bob's misinformation.

Ed