Fritz 13: “Let’s Check”

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Kirk
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Fritz 13: “Let’s Check”

Post by Kirk » Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:18 pm

Shall we call this "Cloud Chess"? ;)

Anyone super excited about this?

“Let’s Check” is a world first, it is the innovation with which Fritz 13 will have the chess world holding its breath

It is with the help of this new function that Fritz 13 users world-wide will create a gigantic database of knowledge. No matter which position you happen to be analysing, should you wish to Fritz 13 will send the evaluation of your engine totally automatically to the “Let’s Check” server. The best analyses will be included in the database of chess knowledge. And best of all: after a short time you will find for almost every position (and without having to spend time calculating) high level analysis produced by a strong chess program or even several analyses produced by various programs for you to compare. And in live broadcasts on playchess.com there will be several hundred computers following world class games simultaneously and feeding the “Let’s check” database with profound analysis. Well, if your analysis goes deeper you can actually gain more positions from other players and see your name enter the roll of honour for “Let’s Check”.
“He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor, pathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious”

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Laskos
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Full name: Kai Laskos

Re: Fritz 13: “Let’s Check”

Post by Laskos » Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:24 pm

Kirk wrote:Shall we call this "Cloud Chess"? ;)

Anyone super excited about this?

“Let’s Check” is a world first, it is the innovation with which Fritz 13 will have the chess world holding its breath

It is with the help of this new function that Fritz 13 users world-wide will create a gigantic database of knowledge. No matter which position you happen to be analysing, should you wish to Fritz 13 will send the evaluation of your engine totally automatically to the “Let’s Check” server. The best analyses will be included in the database of chess knowledge. And best of all: after a short time you will find for almost every position (and without having to spend time calculating) high level analysis produced by a strong chess program or even several analyses produced by various programs for you to compare. And in live broadcasts on playchess.com there will be several hundred computers following world class games simultaneously and feeding the “Let’s check” database with profound analysis. Well, if your analysis goes deeper you can actually gain more positions from other players and see your name enter the roll of honour for “Let’s Check”.
"No matter which position you happen to be analysing"
"The best analyses will be included in the database of chess knowledge"


and the best

"you will find for almost every position (and without having to spend time calculating) high level analysis"


LOL

Kai

Albert Silver
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Re: Fritz 13: “Let’s Check”

Post by Albert Silver » Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:49 pm

Laskos wrote:
Kirk wrote:Shall we call this "Cloud Chess"? ;)

Anyone super excited about this?

“Let’s Check” is a world first, it is the innovation with which Fritz 13 will have the chess world holding its breath

It is with the help of this new function that Fritz 13 users world-wide will create a gigantic database of knowledge. No matter which position you happen to be analysing, should you wish to Fritz 13 will send the evaluation of your engine totally automatically to the “Let’s Check” server. The best analyses will be included in the database of chess knowledge. And best of all: after a short time you will find for almost every position (and without having to spend time calculating) high level analysis produced by a strong chess program or even several analyses produced by various programs for you to compare. And in live broadcasts on playchess.com there will be several hundred computers following world class games simultaneously and feeding the “Let’s check” database with profound analysis. Well, if your analysis goes deeper you can actually gain more positions from other players and see your name enter the roll of honour for “Let’s Check”.
"No matter which position you happen to be analysing"
"The best analyses will be included in the database of chess knowledge"


and the best

"you will find for almost every position (and without having to spend time calculating) high level analysis"


LOL

Kai
You can laugh, but it isn't inaccurate IMHO. It is a bit premature, but the description will correspond fairly quickly. A position will keep up to three computer evaluations (different engines to be exact), and each evaluation is upgraded to a new and deeper one if someone chooses to use the same engine and go deeper. To register analysis, you must run it to a certain depth, which varies according to the computer you are using and the number of cores.

For example, my computer is a 4 x 4.2GHz machine, and only registers a position after at least one minute of continuous analysis if I am using all four cores.

I have personally contributed about 1000 analyses of Houdini 1.5a, including perhaps 50 original positions (i.e. novelties). In over 100 cases, I'd estimate the time analyzed was anywhere between three minutes to an hour (only twice did I run an hour). If I run for an hour non-stop, the position is declared as having undergone "Deep Analysis". Users can also contribute written comments which are then voted upon by others for their quality.

If you are running an engine while watching a game broadcast on Playchess, these too can be automatically added to the LiveBook if you so choose. You can even try to anticipate a novelty in these cases, by playing the move on the board while watching, and getting credit for the analysis first. I suspect there will be a number of users having fun gunning for first credit for analysis in such cases.
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."

bob
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Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: Fritz 13: “Let’s Check”

Post by bob » Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:22 pm

Albert Silver wrote:
Laskos wrote:
Kirk wrote:Shall we call this "Cloud Chess"? ;)

Anyone super excited about this?

“Let’s Check” is a world first, it is the innovation with which Fritz 13 will have the chess world holding its breath

It is with the help of this new function that Fritz 13 users world-wide will create a gigantic database of knowledge. No matter which position you happen to be analysing, should you wish to Fritz 13 will send the evaluation of your engine totally automatically to the “Let’s Check” server. The best analyses will be included in the database of chess knowledge. And best of all: after a short time you will find for almost every position (and without having to spend time calculating) high level analysis produced by a strong chess program or even several analyses produced by various programs for you to compare. And in live broadcasts on playchess.com there will be several hundred computers following world class games simultaneously and feeding the “Let’s check” database with profound analysis. Well, if your analysis goes deeper you can actually gain more positions from other players and see your name enter the roll of honour for “Let’s Check”.
"No matter which position you happen to be analysing"
"The best analyses will be included in the database of chess knowledge"


and the best

"you will find for almost every position (and without having to spend time calculating) high level analysis"


LOL

Kai
You can laugh, but it isn't inaccurate IMHO. It is a bit premature, but the description will correspond fairly quickly. A position will keep up to three computer evaluations (different engines to be exact), and each evaluation is upgraded to a new and deeper one if someone chooses to use the same engine and go deeper. To register analysis, you must run it to a certain depth, which varies according to the computer you are using and the number of cores.

For example, my computer is a 4 x 4.2GHz machine, and only registers a position after at least one minute of continuous analysis if I am using all four cores.

I have personally contributed about 1000 analyses of Houdini 1.5a, including perhaps 50 original positions (i.e. novelties). In over 100 cases, I'd estimate the time analyzed was anywhere between three minutes to an hour (only twice did I run an hour). If I run for an hour non-stop, the position is declared as having undergone "Deep Analysis". Users can also contribute written comments which are then voted upon by others for their quality.

If you are running an engine while watching a game broadcast on Playchess, these too can be automatically added to the LiveBook if you so choose. You can even try to anticipate a novelty in these cases, by playing the move on the board while watching, and getting credit for the analysis first. I suspect there will be a number of users having fun gunning for first credit for analysis in such cases.
His comment was about the "quantity". :) Exactly how many different positions are there to store? :) Even the CAP project Dann worked on did not have enough positions to touch even 1% of available book moves. And book moves don't touch even .00000000000000000000000000000000001% of possible games...

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fern
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Re: Fritz 13: “Let’s Check”

Post by fern » Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:26 pm

Not excited at all. I do not take care about database, learning of them, looking other guys games, examining my games, comparing them, etc, etc, etc
That's sheer lunacy in my view
i just play, lose and smile.
Would prefer a F13 with some girls over there ..

Fern

Albert Silver
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Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:57 pm
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

Re: Fritz 13: “Let’s Check”

Post by Albert Silver » Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:53 am

bob wrote:
Albert Silver wrote:
Laskos wrote:
Kirk wrote:Shall we call this "Cloud Chess"? ;)

Anyone super excited about this?

“Let’s Check” is a world first, it is the innovation with which Fritz 13 will have the chess world holding its breath

It is with the help of this new function that Fritz 13 users world-wide will create a gigantic database of knowledge. No matter which position you happen to be analysing, should you wish to Fritz 13 will send the evaluation of your engine totally automatically to the “Let’s Check” server. The best analyses will be included in the database of chess knowledge. And best of all: after a short time you will find for almost every position (and without having to spend time calculating) high level analysis produced by a strong chess program or even several analyses produced by various programs for you to compare. And in live broadcasts on playchess.com there will be several hundred computers following world class games simultaneously and feeding the “Let’s check” database with profound analysis. Well, if your analysis goes deeper you can actually gain more positions from other players and see your name enter the roll of honour for “Let’s Check”.
"No matter which position you happen to be analysing"
"The best analyses will be included in the database of chess knowledge"


and the best

"you will find for almost every position (and without having to spend time calculating) high level analysis"


LOL

Kai
You can laugh, but it isn't inaccurate IMHO. It is a bit premature, but the description will correspond fairly quickly. A position will keep up to three computer evaluations (different engines to be exact), and each evaluation is upgraded to a new and deeper one if someone chooses to use the same engine and go deeper. To register analysis, you must run it to a certain depth, which varies according to the computer you are using and the number of cores.

For example, my computer is a 4 x 4.2GHz machine, and only registers a position after at least one minute of continuous analysis if I am using all four cores.

I have personally contributed about 1000 analyses of Houdini 1.5a, including perhaps 50 original positions (i.e. novelties). In over 100 cases, I'd estimate the time analyzed was anywhere between three minutes to an hour (only twice did I run an hour). If I run for an hour non-stop, the position is declared as having undergone "Deep Analysis". Users can also contribute written comments which are then voted upon by others for their quality.

If you are running an engine while watching a game broadcast on Playchess, these too can be automatically added to the LiveBook if you so choose. You can even try to anticipate a novelty in these cases, by playing the move on the board while watching, and getting credit for the analysis first. I suspect there will be a number of users having fun gunning for first credit for analysis in such cases.
His comment was about the "quantity". :) Exactly how many different positions are there to store? :) Even the CAP project Dann worked on did not have enough positions to touch even 1% of available book moves. And book moves don't touch even .00000000000000000000000000000000001% of possible games...
Sure, but CAP was mostly 5-6 computers running on it, and the positions were analyzed for some 10 seconds for one core per position on average. As to quantity, IIRC CAP still covered some 10 million positions which is probably a bit more than 1% of the moves in the opening books. Now take into consideration a massively collective effort, with comments and room for constant updating and improvement, and I think the scale and potential is on quite another level.
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."

bob
Posts: 20641
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 6:30 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Re: Fritz 13: “Let’s Check”

Post by bob » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:06 am

Albert Silver wrote:
bob wrote:
Albert Silver wrote:
Laskos wrote:
Kirk wrote:Shall we call this "Cloud Chess"? ;)

Anyone super excited about this?

“Let’s Check” is a world first, it is the innovation with which Fritz 13 will have the chess world holding its breath

It is with the help of this new function that Fritz 13 users world-wide will create a gigantic database of knowledge. No matter which position you happen to be analysing, should you wish to Fritz 13 will send the evaluation of your engine totally automatically to the “Let’s Check” server. The best analyses will be included in the database of chess knowledge. And best of all: after a short time you will find for almost every position (and without having to spend time calculating) high level analysis produced by a strong chess program or even several analyses produced by various programs for you to compare. And in live broadcasts on playchess.com there will be several hundred computers following world class games simultaneously and feeding the “Let’s check” database with profound analysis. Well, if your analysis goes deeper you can actually gain more positions from other players and see your name enter the roll of honour for “Let’s Check”.
"No matter which position you happen to be analysing"
"The best analyses will be included in the database of chess knowledge"


and the best

"you will find for almost every position (and without having to spend time calculating) high level analysis"


LOL

Kai
You can laugh, but it isn't inaccurate IMHO. It is a bit premature, but the description will correspond fairly quickly. A position will keep up to three computer evaluations (different engines to be exact), and each evaluation is upgraded to a new and deeper one if someone chooses to use the same engine and go deeper. To register analysis, you must run it to a certain depth, which varies according to the computer you are using and the number of cores.

For example, my computer is a 4 x 4.2GHz machine, and only registers a position after at least one minute of continuous analysis if I am using all four cores.

I have personally contributed about 1000 analyses of Houdini 1.5a, including perhaps 50 original positions (i.e. novelties). In over 100 cases, I'd estimate the time analyzed was anywhere between three minutes to an hour (only twice did I run an hour). If I run for an hour non-stop, the position is declared as having undergone "Deep Analysis". Users can also contribute written comments which are then voted upon by others for their quality.

If you are running an engine while watching a game broadcast on Playchess, these too can be automatically added to the LiveBook if you so choose. You can even try to anticipate a novelty in these cases, by playing the move on the board while watching, and getting credit for the analysis first. I suspect there will be a number of users having fun gunning for first credit for analysis in such cases.
His comment was about the "quantity". :) Exactly how many different positions are there to store? :) Even the CAP project Dann worked on did not have enough positions to touch even 1% of available book moves. And book moves don't touch even .00000000000000000000000000000000001% of possible games...
Sure, but CAP was mostly 5-6 computers running on it, and the positions were analyzed for some 10 seconds for one core per position on average. As to quantity, IIRC CAP still covered some 10 million positions which is probably a bit more than 1% of the moves in the opening books. Now take into consideration a massively collective effort, with comments and room for constant updating and improvement, and I think the scale and potential is on quite another level.
For the record, I wasn't guessing with my numbers. I used to use "enormous.pgn" and his stuff really was less than 1% of the positions. I could import those values back then and use them in combination with learning stuff to choose moves from the book. I'm just not sure this new "feature" is going to be that significant... Sounds impressive to those that don't grasp just how many chess positions there are...

Hugo
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Re: Fritz 13: “Let’s Check”

Post by Hugo » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:30 am

Hi All

I tested the new Fritz 13 gui release candidate.
My impression of "let's check" is absolutely positive! The tree of analyses will grow rapidly, and many chessplayers you will find a lot of high quality help in the "liveBook". I was surprised to find so many possitions in there in this early phase of developement.
This feature is great -maybe it needs some fine tuning- but still at the beginning it is a good help for chessplayers.

Regards, Clemens Keck

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Laskos
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Full name: Kai Laskos

Re: Fritz 13: “Let’s Check”

Post by Laskos » Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:25 am

Hugo wrote:Hi All

I tested the new Fritz 13 gui release candidate.
My impression of "let's check" is absolutely positive! The tree of analyses will grow rapidly, and many chessplayers you will find a lot of high quality help in the "liveBook". I was surprised to find so many possitions in there in this early phase of developement.
This feature is great -maybe it needs some fine tuning- but still at the beginning it is a good help for chessplayers.

Regards, Clemens Keck
There will be no more than 10^9 positions analyzed even at the final stage of the development in several years. Therefore it could be useful only as an opening book, certainly in the middlegame most of the positions won't be covered. But even as a specialized playchess book, how does one build it? Will the database be available as PGN or trees for download? Otherwise even for specialized playchess books the database is useless. Will the online "tree" be available on subscription basis, like the playchess server? I frankly do not like periodically paying for these services after I bought Fritz.
Until I don't see a book revolution on playchess using this database, I am very skeptical even about its usefulness as a book, without talking of "you will find for almost every position" LOL.

Kai

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ivoryknight
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Re: Fritz 13: “Let’s Check”

Post by ivoryknight » Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:40 pm

Robert Hyatt: ''...Sounds impressive to those that don't grasp just how many chess positions there are...''

To emphasize that:

Number of atoms in the observable universe: Somewhere between 10 to the 78th and 82nd power.

Number of unique positions of chess: 10 to the 120th power: 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

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