Old Shirov position from 1995

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JuLieN
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Old Shirov position from 1995

Post by JuLieN » Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:40 pm

I found an interesting position, browsing Talkchess' archives. it was first submitted by Dirk Frickenschmidt in 1997.

[Event ""]
[Site "Amsterdam Donner"]
[Date "1995"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Shirov,A"]
[Black "Piket,J"]
[WhiteElo "2695"]
[BlackElo "2625"]
[ECO "D52"]
[Result "1-0"]

1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 e6 5.Bg5 Nbd7 6.e3 Qa5 7.cxd5
Nxd5 8.Qd2 Bb4 9.Rc1 h6 10.Bh4 O-O 11.Bd3 Re8 12.a3 Bxc3 13.bxc3
Qxa3 14.O-O e5 15.Nxe5 Nxe5 16.dxe5 Qc5 17.Kh1 Be6 18.e4 Nb6
19.f4 Bc4 20.Rf3 Bxd3 21.Rxd3 Qc4 22.Re1 Kh7 23.Rh3 Re6 24.Bf6
gxf6 25.f5 fxe5 26.fxe6 Qxe6 27.Rf1 Nc4 28.Rxh6+ Qxh6 29.Rxf7+
Kg6 30.Rf6+ Kxf6 31.Qxh6+ Ke7 32.Qg7+ Kd6 33.Qxb7 Nb6 34.h4 Kc5
35.h5 a5 36.h6 1-0
Position after Black's 23rd move (Re6??). What is white's best move, found by Shirov?
[d]r7/pp3ppk/1np1r2p/4P3/2q1PP1B/2P4R/3Q2PP/4R2K w - - 5 24

Shirov is a great provider of test positions! ;)
"The only good bug is a dead bug." (Don Dailey)
Image [Blog: http://tinyurl.com/predateur ] [Facebook: http://tinyurl.com/fbpredateur ] [MacEngines: http://tinyurl.com/macengines ]

F. Bluemers
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Re: Old Shirov position from 1995

Post by F. Bluemers » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:23 pm

JuLieN wrote:I found an interesting position, browsing Talkchess' archives. it was first submitted by Dirk Frickenschmidt in 1997.

[Event ""]
[Site "Amsterdam Donner"]
[Date "1995"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Shirov,A"]
[Black "Piket,J"]
[WhiteElo "2695"]
[BlackElo "2625"]
[ECO "D52"]
[Result "1-0"]

1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 e6 5.Bg5 Nbd7 6.e3 Qa5 7.cxd5
Nxd5 8.Qd2 Bb4 9.Rc1 h6 10.Bh4 O-O 11.Bd3 Re8 12.a3 Bxc3 13.bxc3
Qxa3 14.O-O e5 15.Nxe5 Nxe5 16.dxe5 Qc5 17.Kh1 Be6 18.e4 Nb6
19.f4 Bc4 20.Rf3 Bxd3 21.Rxd3 Qc4 22.Re1 Kh7 23.Rh3 Re6 24.Bf6
gxf6 25.f5 fxe5 26.fxe6 Qxe6 27.Rf1 Nc4 28.Rxh6+ Qxh6 29.Rxf7+
Kg6 30.Rf6+ Kxf6 31.Qxh6+ Ke7 32.Qg7+ Kd6 33.Qxb7 Nb6 34.h4 Kc5
35.h5 a5 36.h6 1-0
Position after Black's 23rd move (Re6??). What is white's best move, found by Shirov?
[d]r7/pp3ppk/1np1r2p/4P3/2q1PP1B/2P4R/3Q2PP/4R2K w - - 5 24

Shirov is a great provider of test positions! ;)
Very nice

Dirty 2 sept beta sticks to Bg5

Code: Select all

 22	+2.20	243.3M	4:00.58	Bg5 Rg6 f5 Rxg5 Qxg5 Qxc3 Rxc3 hxg5 Kg1 g6 Kf2 gxf5 exf5 Nd5 Rh3+ Kg7 Rh5 a5 Rxg5+ Kh6 Rg3 Re8 e6
 21	+2.12	147.2M	2:28.82	Bg5 Rg6 f5 Rxg5 Qxg5 Qxc3 Rxc3 hxg5 Kg1 Re8 Ra1 Nc8 Rb1 Rxe5 Rxb7 Rxe4 Rd7 f6 Kf2 Ne7 Rh3+ Kg8
 21	+2.12	125.3M	2:07.45	Bg5 Rg6 f5 Rxg5 Qxg5 Qxc3 Rxc3 hxg5 Kg1 Re8 Ra1 Nc8 Rb1 Rxe5 Rxb7 Rxe4 Rd7 f6 Kf2 Ne7 Rh3+ Kg8
 20	+2.02	96.6M	1:38.37	Bg5 Rg6 f5 Rxg5 Qxg5 Qxc3 Rxc3 hxg5 Kg1 Re8 Ra1 Nc8 Rh3+ Kg8 Kf2 Rxe5 Rd1 Re8 Ke3 Nb6 Kd3
 20	+2.02	62.1M	1:05.09	Bg5 Rg6 f5 Rxg5 Qxg5 Qxc3 Rxc3 hxg5 Kg1 Re8 Ra1 Nc8 Rh3+ Kg8 Kf2 Rxe5 Rd1 Re8 Ke3 Nb6 Kd3
 19	+2.11	50.0M	0:53.24	Bg5 Rg6 f5 Rxg5 Qxg5 Qxc3 Rxc3 hxg5 Kg1 Kg8 Kf2 Kf8 Rd1 Ke7 Rg3 Rh8 Rxg5 Nc4 Rxg7
 19	+2.11	48.1M	0:51.48	Bg5 Rg6 f5 Rxg5 Qxg5 Qxc3 Rxc3 hxg5 Kg1 Kg8 Kf2 Kf8 Rd1 Ke7 Rg3 Rh8 Rxg5 Nc4 Rxg7
 18	+1.97	39.9M	0:43.22	Bg5 Rg6 f5 Rxg5 Qxg5 Qxc3 Rxc3 hxg5 Kg1 Rd8 Ra1 Nc8 Kf1 Rd2 e6 Kg8 e5 a6
 18	+1.97	38.2M	0:41.62	Bg5 Rg6 f5 Rxg5 Qxg5 Qxc3 Rxc3 hxg5 Kg1 Rd8 Ra1 Nc8 Kf1 Rd2 e6 Kg8 e5 a6
 17	+2.03	34.2M	0:37.59	Bg5 Rg6 f5 Rxg5 Qxg5 Qxc3 Rxc3 hxg5 Kg1 Rd8 Ra1 Nc8 Kf1 Rd2 e6 Kg8 e5
 17	+2.03	33.2M	0:36.67	Bg5 Rg6 f5 Rxg5 Qxg5 Qxc3 Rxc3 hxg5 Kg1 Rd8 Ra1 Nc8 Kf1 Rd2 e6 Kg8 e5
 16	+1.67	30.2M	0:33.60	Bg5 Rg6 f5 Rxg5 Qxg5 Qxc3 Rxc3 hxg5 Kg1 Rd8 e6 fxe6 Kf2 exf5 exf5 Rd2+
 16	+1.67	30.1M	0:33.50	Bg5 Rg6 f5 Rxg5 Qxg5 Qxc3 Rxc3 hxg5 Kg1 Rd8 e6 fxe6 Kf2 exf5 exf5 Rd2+
 16	+0.95	17.0M	0:19.42	Qd1 Qc5 Qh5 Qf8 Rb1 Rae8 Qe2 Qa3 Bf2 Qa6 Qd2 Kh8 Bxb6 axb6 Qd4 c5
 15	+0.92	10.8M	0:12.23	Qd1 Rae8 Bf6 Qc5 Qc1 gxf6 f5 fxe5 fxe6 Rxe6 Rf1 Qe7 Rf5 Rg6 Kg1
 15	+0.92	7.9M	0:09.09	Qd1 Rae8 Bf6 Qc5 Qc1 gxf6 f5 fxe5 fxe6 Rxe6 Rf1 Qe7 Rf5 Rg6 Kg1
 14	+0.98	5.3M	0:06.38	Qd1 Kg8 Qf3 a6 Rg3 Nd7 Rd1 Nc5 Bf6 g6 f5 Rxf6 Rd4 Qe6
 14	+0.98	5.1M	0:06.09	Qd1 Kg8 Qf3 a6 Rg3 Nd7 Rd1 Nc5 Bf6 g6 f5 Rxf6 Rd4 Qe6
 13	+1.12	3.7M	0:04.50	Qd1 Kg8 Rg3 Rg6 Rxg6 fxg6 Qd6 Qxc3 Qxg6 Rf8 Qg4 a6 Rd1
 13	+1.12	3.6M	0:04.43	Qd1 Kg8 Rg3 Rg6 Rxg6 fxg6 Qd6 Qxc3 Qxg6 Rf8 Qg4 a6 Rd1
 12	+0.87	2.9M	0:03.54	Qd1 Rg8 Bf2 c5 Qh5 Rf8 Rg3 Kh8 Rd1 a6 Qf5 Qe2
 12	+0.87	2.2M	0:02.79	Qd1 Rg8 Bf2 c5 Qh5 Rf8 Rg3 Kh8 Rd1 a6 Qf5 Qe2
 11	+0.60	1.0M	0:01.32	Qd1 Rae8 Qh5 Kg8 Rg3 Qb5 Qf5 g6 Qh5 Kh7 Qd1
 11	+0.60	678076	0:00.90	Qd1 Rae8 Qh5 Kg8 Rg3 Qb5 Qf5 g6 Qh5 Kh7 Qd1
 10	+0.88	593089	0:00.79	Qd1 Rae8 Qh5 Kg8 Rg3 Qb5 Rd1 Nc4 Qf5 g6
 10	+0.88	569793	0:00.76	Qd1 Rae8 Qh5 Kg8 Rg3 Qb5 Rd1 Nc4 Qf5 g6
 10	+0.71	175048	0:00.24	Rg3 a6 Bd8 Qb3 Rd1 Nc4 Qe2 Kh8 Kg1 Kg8
  9	+1.04	110458	0:00.17	Rg3 a6 Bd8 Qc5 Rd1 Kh8 Qb2 Qb5 Qf2
  9	+1.04	100858	0:00.15	Rg3 a6 Bd8 Qc5 Rd1 Kh8 Qb2 Qb5 Qf2
  8	+0.86	63314	0:00.10	Rg3 c5 Bd8 Kh8 Kg1 Qa4 Bxb6 Rxb6
  8	+0.86	33650	0:00.07	Rg3 c5 Bd8 Kh8 Kg1 Qa4 Bxb6 Rxb6
  7	+0.80	24409	0:00.06	Rg3 c5 Bd8 Kh8 Kg1 a6 Rb1
  7	+0.80	18566	0:00.04	Rg3 c5 Bd8 Kh8 Kg1 a6 Rb1
  6	+0.97	10334	0:00.03	Rg3 Kh8 Bd8 Re8 Bc7 Kg8
  6	+0.97	6404	0:00.03	Rg3 Kh8 Bd8 Re8 Bc7 Kg8
  5	+0.82	4422	0:00.01	Rg3 Rae8 Bd8 Kg8 Bf6
  5	+0.82	3444	0:00.01	Rg3 Rae8 Bd8 Kg8 Bf6
  4	+1.04	1461	0:00.01	Rg3 Kh8 Bd8 Kg8
  4	+1.04	1005	0:00.01	Rg3 Kh8 Bd8 Kg8
  3	+1.05	736	0:00.01	Rg3 Kh8 Bd8
  3	+1.05	586	0:00.01	Rg3 Kh8 Bd8
  2	+0.92	188	0:00.01	Rg3 Kg8
  2	+0.92	90	0:00.01	Rg3 Kg8
  1	+1.30	43	0:00.00	Rg3

kgburcham
Posts: 2016
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:19 pm

Re: Old Shirov position from 1995

Post by kgburcham » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:27 pm

[D] r7/pp3ppk/1np1r2p/4P3/2q1PP1B/2P4R/3Q2PP/4R2K w - -

Houdini 2.0 Pro

23/57 0:06 +2.22++ 24.Bg5 (242.832.583) 34720
23/67 0:07 +2.05 24.Bg5 Rg6 25.f5 Rxg5 26.Qxg5 Qxc3 27.Qxg7+ Kxg7 28.Rxc3 Nd7 29.e6 Ne5 30.Rg3+ Kf6 31.exf7 Kxf7 (272.119.887) 34362
23/67 0:12 +2.72++ 24.Bf6 (440.687.418) 35086
23/78 0:24 +4.06++ 24.Bf6 (880.167.252) 35865
23/90 1:01 +5.35 24.Bf6 gxf6 25.f5 fxe5 26.fxe6 Qxe6 27.Rf1 Nc4 28.Rxh6+ Qxh6 (2.227.296.887) 36473
24/90 1:25 +5.38 24.Bf6 gxf6 25.f5 fxe5 26.fxe6 Qxe6 27.Rf1 Nc4 (3.163.100.672) 36818
25/90 2:24 +5.63++ 24.Bf6 (5.425.065.068) 37574
25/90 3:19 +5.73 24.Bf6 gxf6 25.f5 fxe5 26.fxe6 Qxe6 27.Rf1 Nc4 28.Rxh6+ Qxh6 (7.531.599.261) 37729
26/90 4:21 +5.73 24.Bf6 gxf6 25.f5 fxe5 26.fxe6 Qxe6 27.Rf1 Nc4 28.Rxh6+ Qxh6 (9.918.704.740) 37964
26/90 5:46 +5.73 24.Bf6 gxf6 25.f5 fxe5 26.fxe6 Qxe6 27.Rf1 Nc4 28.Rxh6+ Qxh6 (13.299.980.888) 38377


26 10:36 +5.33 24.Bf6 gxf6 25.f5 fxe5 26.fxe6 Qxe6 27.Rf1 Nc4 28.Rxh6+ Qxh6 (23.747.403.813) 37282
26 10:36 +2.49 24.Bg5 Rg6 25.f5 Rxg5 26.Qxg5 Qxc3 27.Qxg7+ Kxg7 28.Rxc3 Nd7 (23.747.403.813) 37282
26 10:36 +1.98 24.g4 Rae8 25.Bf6 Nd5 26.Bg5 Kg8 27.exd5 cxd5 28.Bh4 f6 (23.747.403.813) 37282
26 10:36 +0.97 24.Qd1 Rae8 25.Qg4 Qc5 26.Ra1 Qf8 27.Rxa7 Ra8 28.Rxa8 Qxa8 (23.747.403.813) 37282
26 10:36 +0.71 24.Qc1 Rae8 25.Qd1 a5 26.Qg4 Nd7 27.Rg3 g6 28.Rh3 Kg7 (23.747.403.813) 37282

kgburcham

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JuLieN
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Re: Old Shirov position from 1995

Post by JuLieN » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:34 pm

kgburcham wrote:[D] r7/pp3ppk/1np1r2p/4P3/2q1PP1B/2P4R/3Q2PP/4R2K w - -

Houdini 2.0 Pro

23/57 0:06 +2.22++ 24.Bg5 (242.832.583) 34720
23/67 0:07 +2.05 24.Bg5 Rg6 25.f5 Rxg5 26.Qxg5 Qxc3 27.Qxg7+ Kxg7 28.Rxc3 Nd7 29.e6 Ne5 30.Rg3+ Kf6 31.exf7 Kxf7 (272.119.887) 34362
23/67 0:12 +2.72++ 24.Bf6 (440.687.418) 35086
23/78 0:24 +4.06++ 24.Bf6 (880.167.252) 35865
23/90 1:01 +5.35 24.Bf6 gxf6 25.f5 fxe5 26.fxe6 Qxe6 27.Rf1 Nc4 28.Rxh6+ Qxh6 (2.227.296.887) 36473
24/90 1:25 +5.38 24.Bf6 gxf6 25.f5 fxe5 26.fxe6 Qxe6 27.Rf1 Nc4 (3.163.100.672) 36818
25/90 2:24 +5.63++ 24.Bf6 (5.425.065.068) 37574
25/90 3:19 +5.73 24.Bf6 gxf6 25.f5 fxe5 26.fxe6 Qxe6 27.Rf1 Nc4 28.Rxh6+ Qxh6 (7.531.599.261) 37729
26/90 4:21 +5.73 24.Bf6 gxf6 25.f5 fxe5 26.fxe6 Qxe6 27.Rf1 Nc4 28.Rxh6+ Qxh6 (9.918.704.740) 37964
26/90 5:46 +5.73 24.Bf6 gxf6 25.f5 fxe5 26.fxe6 Qxe6 27.Rf1 Nc4 28.Rxh6+ Qxh6 (13.299.980.888) 38377


26 10:36 +5.33 24.Bf6 gxf6 25.f5 fxe5 26.fxe6 Qxe6 27.Rf1 Nc4 28.Rxh6+ Qxh6 (23.747.403.813) 37282
26 10:36 +2.49 24.Bg5 Rg6 25.f5 Rxg5 26.Qxg5 Qxc3 27.Qxg7+ Kxg7 28.Rxc3 Nd7 (23.747.403.813) 37282
26 10:36 +1.98 24.g4 Rae8 25.Bf6 Nd5 26.Bg5 Kg8 27.exd5 cxd5 28.Bh4 f6 (23.747.403.813) 37282
26 10:36 +0.97 24.Qd1 Rae8 25.Qg4 Qc5 26.Ra1 Qf8 27.Rxa7 Ra8 28.Rxa8 Qxa8 (23.747.403.813) 37282
26 10:36 +0.71 24.Qc1 Rae8 25.Qd1 a5 26.Qg4 Nd7 27.Rg3 g6 28.Rh3 Kg7 (23.747.403.813) 37282

kgburcham
Interesting... so Bf6 might not be the best move after all, if Houdini is right? It gives the move +5.73 at the 26th ply, before discarding it totally after that. Strange. I wonder what was the black refutation it saw...
"The only good bug is a dead bug." (Don Dailey)
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Paloma
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Re: Old Shirov position from 1995

Post by Paloma » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:42 pm

Hi Julien,

the second part is MPV mode

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JuLieN
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Re: Old Shirov position from 1995

Post by JuLieN » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:48 pm

Paloma wrote:Hi Julien,

the second part is MPV mode
Oh, oops... thank you! :D :oops:
"The only good bug is a dead bug." (Don Dailey)
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kgburcham
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Re: Old Shirov position from 1995

Post by kgburcham » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:01 pm

JuLieN wrote:
Paloma wrote:Hi Julien,

the second part is MPV mode
Oh, oops... thank you! :D :oops:
sorry Julien,
kgburcham

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JuLieN
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Re: Old Shirov position from 1995

Post by JuLieN » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:29 pm

kgburcham wrote:
JuLieN wrote:
Paloma wrote:Hi Julien,

the second part is MPV mode
Oh, oops... thank you! :D :oops:
sorry Julien,
kgburcham
No problem! That will teach me to "get my eyes in front of their orbs", as we say in french ;)

Interestingly enough, this position was tough, back in 1997. Dark Thought had Bf6 for a few plies, before going back to Bg5. Same thing for Rebel 9 and CSTal. Hiarcs 6 doesn't find it, but Fritz 5 does... after nearly four hours (on a ... P133).

As for my Engine, Pred sticks with Bg5 too, at ply 15 (yes, pruning less makes it take a lot of time to reach big depths...), with a +0.65.
"The only good bug is a dead bug." (Don Dailey)
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kgburcham
Posts: 2016
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:19 pm

Re: Old Shirov position from 1995

Post by kgburcham » Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:02 pm

JuLieN wrote:
kgburcham wrote:
JuLieN wrote:
Paloma wrote:Hi Julien,

the second part is MPV mode
Oh, oops... thank you! :D :oops:
sorry Julien,
kgburcham
No problem! That will teach me to "get my eyes in front of their orbs", as we say in french ;)

Interestingly enough, this position was tough, back in 1997. Dark Thought had Bf6 for a few plies, before going back to Bg5. Same thing for Rebel 9 and CSTal. Hiarcs 6 doesn't find it, but Fritz 5 does... after nearly four hours (on a ... P133).

As for my Engine, Pred sticks with Bg5 too, at ply 15 (yes, pruning less makes it take a lot of time to reach big depths...), with a +0.65.
Now that u mention Hiarcs, I will try it and see if there is a change.
kgburcham

kgburcham
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Re: Old Shirov position from 1995

Post by kgburcham » Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:56 pm

[D] r7/pp3ppk/1np1r2p/4P3/2q1PP1B/2P4R/3Q2PP/4R2K w - -


HIARCS 13.2 MP (2048 MB)
by Mark John Uniacke
12 threads
HT off

15/36 0:01 +2.46 24.Bg5 Kg8 25.Bf6 gxf6 26.f5 fxe5 27.fxe6 Qxe6 28.Rxh6 Qe7 29.Rf1 Rd8 30.Qf2 (10.102.228) 5152
16/36 0:02 +2.62 24.Bg5 Kg8 25.Bf6 Qc5 26.f5 Nc4 27.Qc1 (12.714.172) 5228
17/36 0:03 +2.63 24.Bg5 Kg8 25.Bf6 gxf6 26.f5 fxe5 27.fxe6 Qxe6 28.Rxh6 Qg4 (16.010.977) 5143
18/38 0:04 +2.87 24.Bg5 Rg6 25.f5 Rxg5 26.Qxg5 (25.654.017) 5509
19/39 0:08 +3.09 24.Bg5 Rae8 25.f5 Rxe5 26.Bxh6 (48.729.576) 5851
20/42 0:14 +3.10 24.Bg5 Rg6 25.f5 Rxg5 26.Qxg5 Qxc3 27.Qxg7+ Kxg7 28.Rxc3 Nd7 (86.377.056) 6040
21/46 0:20 +3.00 24.Bg5 Rg6 25.f5 Rxg5 26.Qxg5 Qxc3 27.Qxh6+ gxh6 (125.545.508) 6057
22/48 0:40 +3.08 24.Bg5 Rg6 25.f5 Rxg5 26.Qxg5 Qxc3 27.Qxh6+ gxh6 28.Rxc3 Re8 (250.104.815) 6220
23/48 1:01 +3.00 24.Bg5 Rg6 25.f5 Rxg5 26.Qxg5 Qxc3 27.Qxh6+ gxh6 28.Rxc3 Re8 (380.252.561) 6223
24/51 1:58 +3.22 24.Bg5 Rg6 25.f5 Rxg5 26.Qxg5 Qxc3 27.Qxg7+ Kxg7 28.Rxc3 Re8 (764.573.264) 6476
25/53 4:38 +3.13 24.Bg5 Rg6 25.f5 Rxg5 26.Qxg5 Qxc3 27.Qxg7+ Kxg7 28.Rxc3 Nd7 (1.880.686.839) 6762
26/57 8:26 +3.33 24.Bg5 Rg6 25.f5 Rxg5 26.Qxg5 Qxc3 27.Qxg7+ Kxg7 28.Rxc3 Nd7 (3.501.023.534) 6908
27/62 15:18 +3.14 24.Bg5 Rg6 25.f5 Rxg5 26.Qxg5 Qxc3 27.Qxg7+ Kxg7 28.Rxc3 Nd7 (6.567.570.726) 7148

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