The near future of computer chess

[Don]

I understand your point fully, Don. Perhaps, instead, you do not understand mine. I am not defending this or that guy copying a program. I do see that there is a craft in all this, an organic entity where the sequence of codes, iterations , etc are the core of it, not just the subroutines.
I just do what more or less Ed S. did: to point out that in the general process of the progress of an activity this kind of behavior is common and part of it, with all the distortions, stealing, robbery, bad faith, etc.
So what I have done is to say, "look, this is the way of all flesh".
Some guys are stolen; some other are cheated; some progress are real hoaxes, some guys really make improvements of substance, some other do not, etc, etc.
In the middle of all that there are sheer robbery as the one you have mentioned..
Oh, this is long to explain for me and for you. Hard in this way, posting. Perhaps we should meet in a bar and talk about this..

Fern

Ok. I would like that. I'll definitely buy you a beer and we can talk about it!

[Don]

1. You want to label the new guy Roberto Munter a terrorist for not willing to reinvent dozens of wheels and being honest about that ?

Nobody is going to criticise Roberto Munter for not being "willing to reinvent dozens of wheels and being honest about that." The crucial issue is what he does after he has legitimately modified a program.

He is likely to be criticised if he subsequently does any or all of the following:
#. Lies about having modified the program and claims it as completely original.
#. Sells it as an original piece of work.
#. Diverts income from sales away from the person whose program he modified and into his own pocket.
#. Enters the program in tournaments that are reserved for original programs.
#. Diverts prize money and/or trophies that were intended for programmers of original engines into his own pocket.
#. Violates the licences of those who open their code under restricted conditions.
#. Tricks people into testing his engine by claiming it was original.
#. Makes unsubstantiated claims and hypocritical claims that other people have copied his “original” engine.

If Rajlich has used Fruit code, he may have done all of those things. If Houdart has used Ippolit code, he may have done at least 2 of them. Whereas standing “on giants shoulders” is perfectly acceptable, it is the behaviour in which Rajlich and Houdart may have indulged subsequent to standing on giants shoulders that causes some of us problems. It is the absence of that behaviour that causes some of us to view Thomas Gaksch, the man who modified Fruit code to produce Toga, in a different light.

Very nicely put. It's amazing how simple this is to understand and yet the simplicity which which you explained this is completely over the head of some on this forum.

[K I Hyams]

The problem of Ippolit is that it's:

- without any license;
- without any limitation;
- without any real author (There are just fancy names, eg. Roberto Pescatore, etc.);

This is a Blessing or Curse?

You pose the question of blessing or curse. I respect all legitimate behaviour that is carried out for altruistic motives and that includes the making of gifts. As it is not clear what the motives of the Ippolit authors are or even whether their “gifts” are legitimate, I maintain a neutral attitude towards them. I return to a point implied in my previous post; the problem is not with donors or those who benefit from what they are given, it is with those who abuse donations. We need to criticise the abusers, not the donors or the intended recipients.

[fern]

I did...

Fern

[lkaufman]

[quote="kraniumand for selfishly sharing this tremendous program and great CC progress...normally we must (should!) thank a group of Russia/Italian/Albanian programmers, and the Decembrists:
Yakov Petrovich Golyadkin, Igor Igorovich Igoronov, Roberto Pescatore Yusuf Ralf Weisskopf, Ivan Skavinsky Skavar plus Decembrists (all)...
but instead, (paradoxically), the program is arbitrarily blacklisted by the misguided abd uninformed amateur 'good old boy' testing groups: CCRL, CEGT, abd IPON!
/quote]

Do you really believe that Igor Igorovich Igoronov and Roberto Pescatore (= Bobby Fischer) are the real names of the authors of Ippolit? Can you explain why the real authors have remained anonymous? If they did nothing wrong, they should be proud of their work, not hiding. This is surely one reason that Ippolit and its closest relatives were not accepted for rating prior to Houdini. No original author would vouch for which version should be rated. Maybe it's not too late for the real authors to come forth and have their work recognized and tested.

[fern]

Beer???
Man, I was thinking in something a bit stronger, but well, Ok, be it so...

Fern

[kranium]

and for selfishly sharing this tremendous program and great CC progress...normally we must (should!) thank a group of Russia/Italian/Albanian programmers, and the Decembrists:
Yakov Petrovich Golyadkin, Igor Igorovich Igoronov, Roberto Pescatore Yusuf Ralf Weisskopf, Ivan Skavinsky Skavar plus Decembrists (all)...
but instead, (paradoxically), the program is arbitrarily blacklisted by the misguided and uninformed amateur 'good old boy' testing groups: CCRL, CEGT, and IPON!

Do you really believe that Igor Igorovich Igoronov and Roberto Pescatore (= Bobby Fischer) are the real names of the authors of Ippolit?

No,
but i'm quite sure that there do indeed exist people in Italy names Roberto Pesactore

Can you explain why the real authors have remained anonymous?

No

If they did nothing wrong, they should be proud of their work, not hiding. This is surely one reason that Ippolit and its closest relatives were not accepted for rating prior to Houdini. No original author would vouch for which version should be rated.

i don't understand your reasoning here...?
many people prefer to remain anonymous on the Internet, for many different reasons.
remaining anonymous does not mean they have done something wrong, i.e. it is is not a crime...

i'm confident they are quite proud of their work...and should be.
they have been diligently developing it for years now...and have enlisted an army of 'Decembrists' to help

what might they have done wrong Larry?
the CCRL, CEGT, and IPON are testing Rybka, Houdini, and Stelka...
what could the Ippolit authors possibly have done to get themselves 'blacklisted'?
i.e. what can as bad or worse than what Vas.R, Robert H., and Juy O. have done?
remaining 'anonymous'?

Maybe it's not too late for the real authors to come forth and have their work recognized and tested.

at some point it will be too late? too late for what?
their work is being downloaded, evaluated, and tested, all over the world by many many thousands of users...
i.e. an enormous mass of individuals who don't give a damn what the CCC 'good old boys' pronounce...

do you really think the computer chess world is isolated to this forum?

please see:
http://www.amateurschach.de/
http://sedat-chess.110mb.com/index.php?p=1_8
http://t10rl.blogspot.com/
http://s017.radikal.ru/i425/1111/80/02b76c2e227c.png
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Ches ... ssage/6409

there are many more...

[Graham Banks]

the CCRL, CEGT, and IPON are testing Rybka, Houdini, and Stelka...

Shows you how carefully you look. The last version of Strelka that CCRL tested was 2.0.

[kranium]

the CCRL, CEGT, and IPON are testing Rybka, Houdini, and Stelka...

Shows you how carefully you look. The last version of Strelka that CCRL tested was 2.0.

?
Graham,
one doesn't have to 'look carefully' at the CCRL list and see that Strelka appears on it...
anyway, what does the version of Strelka have to do with it?

is 2.0 acceptable, but 5.0 not?

[Laskos]

[quote="kraniumand for selfishly sharing this tremendous program and great CC progress...normally we must (should!) thank a group of Russia/Italian/Albanian programmers, and the Decembrists:
Yakov Petrovich Golyadkin, Igor Igorovich Igoronov, Roberto Pescatore Yusuf Ralf Weisskopf, Ivan Skavinsky Skavar plus Decembrists (all)...
but instead, (paradoxically), the program is arbitrarily blacklisted by the misguided abd uninformed amateur 'good old boy' testing groups: CCRL, CEGT, abd IPON!
/quote]

Do you really believe that Igor Igorovich Igoronov and Roberto Pescatore (= Bobby Fischer) are the real names of the authors of Ippolit? Can you explain why the real authors have remained anonymous? If they did nothing wrong, they should be proud of their work, not hiding. This is surely one reason that Ippolit and its closest relatives were not accepted for rating prior to Houdini. No original author would vouch for which version should be rated. Maybe it's not too late for the real authors to come forth and have their work recognized and tested.

Not testing IvanHoe, still one of the strongest engines out there, an open source, state of the art, free engine with a plethora of features, is an act of sheer hypocrisy, and you do not make a service to yourself as a commercial developer of a comparable strength engine bashing IvanHoe on unsound grounds. Besides that, Komodo borrowed from IvanHoe, and not viceversa. I think this hypocrisy of some "good" guys like you ("good" guys say that you are a "good" guy, a community of "good" guys, one praising the another).

What's this argument that IvanHoe authors are anonymous? Larry Kaufman, post the scans of your Driver's License, residence, marital status, profession, income, IRS forms, etc. I really do not know who is Larry Kaufman.

For testers: take the latest version, IH 46, and keep it tested for some 6 months, that's fine? Or maybe you are still confused about Pescatore and "zillions of versions"?

Kai