POLL:Man vs Machine ?

[melajara]

"i don't think that the majority of GMs thinks to be stronger than the top engines"

Of course, but they have a public image to preserve, especially among not very knowledgeable fans or the general public.

They would hate to make so obvious that they could be beaten 10/0 by a free application (e.g. Stockfish) running on your average smartphone

As for money, I was editing my post when you were quoting it

[MM]

"i don't think that the majority of GMs thinks to be stronger than the top engines"

Of course, but they have a public image to preserve, especially among not very knowledgeable fans or the general public.

They would hate to make so obvious that they could be beaten 10/0 by a free application (e.g. Stockfish) running on your average smartphone

As for money, I was editing my post when you were quoting it

It can be true, but i don't think that a Super GM (i see only Carlsen as a super Gm, i consider Aronian and the others 1 step behind) would be crushed. I think Carlsen would give the engine a hard time.

About the image, yes, probably someone would be happy to avoid to lose bad.

In fact i remember that in '90, two top players, i think Anand and Kramnik, were rumored to have asked to the organizers, to avoid chess genius, otherwise they retired (!). I think it was around 1994/1995.

Anyway that year chess genius beat kasparov in rapid 1.5-0,5 and Nikolic (i think 2-0) but lost to Anand (i think 2-0).

Now i read about the money price sorry

Best Regards

[Sedat Canbaz]

Hello Sedat,

i understand your point of view and respect totally your opinion but i see the things differently.

If i understood well, you match the strenght of the engines of the past with the actual engines and calculate the elo difference (and calculate the plus elo due to the hardware)

Basically, having that, you calculate the plus strenght of the engine against humans.

From my point of view it is not correct.

For example: if you set a match between Carlsen and a 1400 elo engine and a 1800 elo engine, probably Carlsen will score identically.

But there is 400 elo difference between the 2 engines.

I mean that the elo of the engines, in my opinion, is valid only for engines and cannot be compared to the elo of Humans for a simple reason:

with the exception of very rare events, humans and machines have a own life and never play the same tournaments.

If there was a circuit in which humans and software would play constantly together and we should have a huge difference in performance in favour of the machine i would agree with you.

But it's not the actual situation.

Basically i think that untill humans and machines will play together regularely in the tournaments, it is impossible to compare the strenght of the ones with the strenght of the others.

Thank you

Best Regards

Dear Maurizio,

Thank you for interesting comments...

Of course its just estimations...i dont claim 100 % that i am right about there will be more than 500 Elo difference

I can be wrong...you can be wrong too

Just a simple question:
-Do you believe that Top GMs of 2700-2800 Elo will perform 200-300 Elo points stronger than Fritz in Bahrain,Rebel,Chess Tiger 2007.1 ?

Please check the bellow table,which is based on GMs vs Machines results - played 6-7 years ago,where the difference is 190 Elo:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-comp ... ss_matches


Note:only Junior chess engine was defeated (only two loses by Junior engine,it seems Junior team was not so lucky)


See also the performance of Chess Tiger,Rebel... vs Humans:
http://www.rebel.nl/resu.htm


I know very well that for a better conclusion,thousands of games are needed,but anyway i impressed by the performance of the top chess programs
And i dont think that we can find a such sponsor,who will make a such event of running thousands of games between Man vs Machine

Personally for me it's will be a BIG surprise,in case of Houdini,Rybka,Critter will be performed 300-400 Elo stronger than top GMs


Best,
Sedat

[MM]

Hello Sedat,

i understand your point of view and respect totally your opinion but i see the things differently.

If i understood well, you match the strenght of the engines of the past with the actual engines and calculate the elo difference (and calculate the plus elo due to the hardware)

Basically, having that, you calculate the plus strenght of the engine against humans.

From my point of view it is not correct.

For example: if you set a match between Carlsen and a 1400 elo engine and a 1800 elo engine, probably Carlsen will score identically.

But there is 400 elo difference between the 2 engines.

I mean that the elo of the engines, in my opinion, is valid only for engines and cannot be compared to the elo of Humans for a simple reason:

with the exception of very rare events, humans and machines have a own life and never play the same tournaments.

If there was a circuit in which humans and software would play constantly together and we should have a huge difference in performance in favour of the machine i would agree with you.

But it's not the actual situation.

Basically i think that untill humans and machines will play together regularely in the tournaments, it is impossible to compare the strenght of the ones with the strenght of the others.

Thank you

Best Regards

Dear Maurizio,

Thank you for interesting comments...

Of course its just estimations...i dont claim 100 % that i am right about there will be more than 500 Elo difference

I can be wrong...you can be wrong too

Just a simple question:
-Do you believe that Top GMs of 2700-2800 Elo will perform 200-300 Elo points stronger than Fritz in Bahrain,Rebel,Chess Tiger 2007.1 ?

Please check the bellow table,which is based on GMs vs Machines results - played 6-7 years ago,where the difference is 190 Elo:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-comp ... ss_matches


Note:only Junior chess engine was defeated (only two loses by Junior engine,it seems Junior team was not so lucky)


See also the performance of Chess Tiger,Rebel... vs Humans:
http://www.rebel.nl/resu.htm


I know very well that for a better conclusion,thousands of games are needed,but anyway i impressed by the performance of the top chess programs
And i dont think that we can find a such sponsor,who will make a such event of running thousands of games between Man vs Machine

Personally for me it's will be a BIG surprise,in case of Houdini,Rybka,Critter will be performed 300-400 Elo stronger than top GMs


Best,
Sedat

Hi Sedat,

thanks for the links

yes, machines have often very good results.

I think a Super Gm must recall all his will and his concentration to be able to fight against the machine because the machine is never tired, never blunders, has never fear, never feels pressure and anyway GM's have very little experience how to face a machine.

That's why i would like tournaments with humans and machines together continuosly. It would be better for everyone.

Best Regards

[muxecoid]

Recently there was a match between decent GM and top engine(I forgot who exactly). The match ended with 18 wins and 2 draws for engine. My ELO calculator says it is +512. And human player was a 2600ish GM. So the difference between top human and top engine is closer to 350. Best GMs have decent draw chances but no hope to win.

[Sedat Canbaz]

Recently there was a match between decent GM and top engine(I forgot who exactly). The match ended with 18 wins and 2 draws for engine. My ELO calculator says it is +512. And human player was a 2600ish GM. So the difference between top human and top engine is closer to 350. Best GMs have decent draw chances but no hope to win.

Thanks for the useful info...+512 Elo difference that shows nowadays how is the chess programs are very strong


But anyway we need more details about this match:

1)Which chess engine is played exactly ?

2)What kind of hardware is used ?

3)What kind of opening book is used for the chess program ?


Best,
Sedat

[MM]

Recently there was a match between decent GM and top engine(I forgot who exactly). The match ended with 18 wins and 2 draws for engine. My ELO calculator says it is +512. And human player was a 2600ish GM. So the difference between top human and top engine is closer to 350. Best GMs have decent draw chances but no hope to win.

Thanks for the useful info...+512 Elo difference that shows nowadays how is the chess programs are very strong


But anyway we need more details about this match:

1)Which chess engine is played exactly ?

2)What kind of hardware is used ?

3)What kind of opening book is used for the chess program ?


Best,
Sedat

Hello,

2600 is generic, anyway the difference in strenght between a 2600 and a 2800 is huge. If we consider any kind of GM, of course the machines are clearly dominant.

I think, to have a serius measure of comparison, we should need to face a 2800 (Carlsen) against a strong machine (Houdini).

Hello Sedat,

i'm surprised you didn't ask the most important thing:

what was the time control?

In blitz or rapid engines are by far superior.

In 120/40 repeated it is another story.



I never heard of this match. I googled in the search of this match but i didn't find anything.

Can someone provide some more details about it?

Best Regards

[Sedat Canbaz]

I respect all opinions over this issue,but i think its time to see the real facts

So...in other words,there is only one way-who is right ?!

I challenge any Top GM (including GMs of +2600 Elo) to play with me

I mean,my conditions will be:

Code: Select all

Hardware:i7 980X @4.33GHz
Engine:Houdini/Rybka/Critter
Book:Perfect 16
TC:15m+10s or 60m+15s (i can't accept 120/40,due to we can't produce many games)

Who are interested for a such challenge, please feel free to contact me:
http://www.sedatcanbaz.com/chess/contact/

Best Regards,
Sedat Canbaz

[Thomas Mayer]

I respect all opinions over this issue,but i think its time to see the real facts

So...in other words,there is only one way-who is right ?!

I challenge any Top GM (including GMs of +2600 Elo) to play with me

I mean,my conditions will be:

Code: Select all

Hardware:i7 980X @4.33GHz
Engine:Houdini/Rybka/Critter
Book:Perfect 16
TC:15m+10s or 60m+15s (i can't accept 120/40,due to we can't produce many games)

Who are interested for a such challenge, please feel free to contact me:
http://www.sedatcanbaz.com/chess/contact/

Best Regards,
Sedat Canbaz

Hi Sedat,

well you would need money to attract any GM. Don't know how much would be needed to make them interested, but try something like 5000$ for playing, 2000$ for each draw and 5000$ for a win.
And besides that, I am quite sure that if the GM is not trying to win but just going for a draw the difference might be even less then 100 Elo. (I doubt that a human can WIN a longer match these days because it is really not easy to win against those monsters, but I still think that it is easier to make a draw if someone follow let's say Kurt Utzinger rules. That results in some kind of boring chess. Of course you could try to prevent that with some special opening book but I am not sure if that helps nearly as good as it helps in blitz games. Remember: comparing Computer Elo to Human Elo is simply a "no-no".

Greets, Thomas

[Thomas Mayer]

Just for your interest:

some years ago I played with a quite slow computer (Athlon 1800 MHz) with Quark in the main playing hall of playchess.de. I achieved almost the same results with it against humans then Shredder, Hiarcs or Fritz, partly Quarks result were even better. And that version is definitely 300 or more Elo behind those three engines. Playing engines with an engine and playing humans with an engine is something completely different.

Greets, Thomas

P.S.: Besides that, Kurt Utzinger posted a lot of games in the past against top engines where he could achieve extremely often a draw. Just with playing "boring" eventless chess. It doesn't matter what hardware is used, this is still possible against almost all engines.