Test position

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Arpad Rusz
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:34 pm
Location: Budapest

Test position

Post by Arpad Rusz » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:28 pm

[D]N3k1nR/p1p1Pp2/2P1pPr1/b2pP3/P1pP1K2/2P3p1/6P1/8 w - - 0 1

White wins!

Robert Flesher
Posts: 1246
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:06 am

Re: Test position

Post by Robert Flesher » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:44 pm

Arpad Rusz wrote:[D]N3k1nR/p1p1Pp2/2P1pPr1/b2pP3/P1pP1K2/2P3p1/6P1/8 w - - 0 1

White wins!


I have seen a problems like this before. They are all based on zugzwang. The idea is to have the king threaten/attempt to penatrate the queen side thus forcing black to a6 and once the king returns to f4 black is in zugzwang. He will eventually be foced to play Bb6 and when the knight captures it. Game over! However, if black is not forced to play a6 ( I am not sure yet) then I cannot see the win.

The king triangulates Kf3!, Ke3!, Kf4! forcing a6. I am still looking...

Robert Flesher
Posts: 1246
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:06 am

Re: Test position

Post by Robert Flesher » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:02 pm

Arpad Rusz wrote:[D]N3k1nR/p1p1Pp2/2P1pPr1/b2pP3/P1pP1K2/2P3p1/6P1/8 w - - 0 1

White wins!


You always post the most brilliant problems. They all look simple at first glance, then the truth hits me. Damn you! :wink:

Robert Flesher
Posts: 1246
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:06 am

Re: Test position

Post by Robert Flesher » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:05 pm

Robert Flesher wrote:
Arpad Rusz wrote:[D]N3k1nR/p1p1Pp2/2P1pPr1/b2pP3/P1pP1K2/2P3p1/6P1/8 w - - 0 1

White wins!


I have seen a problems like this before. They are all based on zugzwang. The idea is to have the king threaten/attempt to penatrate the queen side thus forcing black to a6 and once the king returns to f4 black is in zugzwang. He will eventually be foced to play Bb6 and when the knight captures it. Game over! However, if black is not forced to play a6 ( I am not sure yet) then I cannot see the win.

The king triangulates Kf3!, Ke3!, Kf4! forcing a6. I am still looking...
The above plan does not even work..... I was hallucinating again.

Arpad Rusz
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:34 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Test position

Post by Arpad Rusz » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:07 pm

:lol: :lol:
You are on a good track! The problem is that the Black Rook also may "triangulate" (Rg6-g5-g4-g6). So a triangulation by the White King is not enough: it must "quadrangulate"!
By the way this is an old study by Bláthy (1890).

Robert Flesher
Posts: 1246
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:06 am

Re: Test position

Post by Robert Flesher » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:17 pm

Arpad Rusz wrote::lol: :lol:
You are on a good track! The problem is that the Black Rook also may "triangulate" (Rg6-g5-g4-g6). So a triangulation by the White King is not enough: it must "quadrangulate"!
By the way this is an old study by Bláthy (1890).


I always watch your problems with great interest as they show me how much more work I need to put into my game. But also people cannot use engines for them. They must use their own abilities. I am still looking....

Robert Flesher
Posts: 1246
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:06 am

Re: Test position

Post by Robert Flesher » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:47 pm

Arpad Rusz wrote:[D]N3k1nR/p1p1Pp2/2P1pPr1/b2pP3/P1pP1K2/2P3p1/6P1/8 w - - 0 1

White wins!

I believe I have solved it now. Shall all allow others the chance?

Jouni
Posts: 2431
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:15 pm

Re: Test position

Post by Jouni » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:17 pm

Mate in 31.
Jouni

peter
Posts: 2253
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Test position

Post by peter » Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:20 pm

Arpad Rusz wrote:[D]N3k1nR/p1p1Pp2/2P1pPr1/b2pP3/P1pP1K2/2P3p1/6P1/8 w - - 0 1

White wins!
Hi Arpad!

Very nice one.
Komodo almost got it. Maybe I was just a little bit too impatient still.
After

N3k1nR/p1p1Pp2/2P1pPr1/b2pP3/P1pP1K2/2P3p1/6P1/8 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Komodo32 3 32bit:

1.Ke3 Tg4 2.Kf3 Tg5 3.Kf4 Tf5+ 4.Kg4
-+ (-1.85) Tiefe: 6 00:00:00 3kN
1.Kf3
-/+ (-1.02) Tiefe: 6 00:00:00 4kN
1.Kf3 Tg5 2.Kf4 Tg6
= (0.00) Tiefe: 6 00:00:00 4kN
...
1.Kf3 Tg5 2.Kf4 Tg6
= (0.00) Tiefe: 26 00:26:28 1145mN
1.Ke3
= (0.16) Tiefe: 26 00:26:52 1163mN
1.Ke3 Tg4
= (0.15) Tiefe: 26 00:34:53 1510mN

taking half an hour, I couldn't wait and entered 1.Ke3 but look what came at once then:

N3k1nR/p1p1Pp2/2P1pPr1/b2pP3/P1pP4/2P1K1p1/6P1/8 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Komodo32 3 32bit:

1...Tg4 2.Ke2 Tg5 3.Kd1 Tg4 4.Kc2
+- (4.43) Tiefe: 6 00:00:00 0kN
...
1...Tg4 2.Ke2 Tg6 3.Kd2 Tg5 4.Kc1 Tg4 5.Kd1 Tg6 6.Ke2 Tg4 7.Ke3 a6 8.Kf3 Tg5 9.Ke2 Tg6 10.Kd2 Tg5 11.Kc2 Tg6 12.Kc1 Tg4 13.Kd1 Tg5
+- (5.06) Tiefe: 22 00:00:36 31564kN

:)
Of course, the output doesn't contain the point itself fully but going into the main variant with the full hash makes you sure, Komodo's got it.
So I don't have to show the solution, Komodo may do it for me.
Remark, I did switch off his nullmove of course.
:)
Peter.

peter
Posts: 2253
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Test position

Post by peter » Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:24 pm

As a matter of fact this study is to me a very good example of the nonsense adjugdement by adjudicator does do studies nowadays, having to accord to rules like: major dual is to be avenged.
The message of this very fine piece of art seems to be: tell adjudicators to look twice if a dual isn't to be rewarded yet
:)
I mean who cares, if this takes 30 (if you don't count the fen), 31, 32 or 33 moves to mate
Peter.

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