Queensacrifice against Houdini3, correct or not?

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Henryval
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Queensacrifice against Houdini3, correct or not?

Post by Henryval » Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:42 am

This game shows the positional abilitys of a program. Komodo 3 attack won this Queensac against Houdini3. I can tell You...not much programs will do that. Discussion opened.

Houdini3 itself prefers Qb1 on my Computer.


[pgn]
[Event "3 Minuten/Partie + 1 Sekunden/Zug"]
[Site "Engine Match"]
[Date "2013.02.16"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Komodo64 3 attack2"]
[Black "Houdini 3 Pro x64"]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r2q1rk1/pp2pp1p/2p3pb/8/2PPPn2/2NQnN2/PP4PP/R3RBK1 w - -"]

1. Qxe3 {0.00/17 4s} Nh3+ {-0.60/17 2s} 2. gxh3 {-0.35/19
16s} Bxe3+ {-0.61/16 1s} 3. Rxe3 {-0.35/20 5s} e5 {-0.55/18
8s (f6)} 4. d5 {-0.02/18 3s} Kg7 {-0.51/17 5s (Db6)} 5. Kh1
{+0.21/16 4s (Kg2)} Qb6 {-0.61/18 3s (f6)} 6. Re2 {+0.20/18
6s} f6 {-0.55/17 7s} 7. Rae1 {+0.20/16 5s (Kg2)} Rfd8
{-0.51/17 26s (Tad8)} 8. Rg2 {+0.20/15 2s (Td2)} Rg8
{-0.47/14 2s (a5)} 9. a3 {+0.36/15 5s (h4)} Qc7 {-0.51/11
7s} 10. Bd3 {+0.36/12 2s (h4)} Qd7 {-0.45/9 3s (Tge8)}
11. Rg3 {+0.52/12 1s (h4)} a6 {-0.41/10 7s (Tac8)} 12. c5
{+1.06/14 4s (Tf1)} Rab8 {-0.23/9 3s (Tgf8)} 13. Nd2
{+1.34/16 3s (Kg2)} cxd5 {-0.10/8 6s (b5)} 14. exd5
{+1.49/14 3s (Sxd5)} Rge8 {+0.04/8 6s (Tbe8)} 15. Nde4
{+1.32/15 4s (Sc4)} Rf8 {+0.33/11 2s (f5)} 16. Bc4
{+1.35/15 10s (Sd6)} Kh6 {+0.22/15 3s (f5)} 17. b4
{+1.83/14 6s (Kg2)} Ra8 {+0.19/10 4s (Kg7)} 18. d6
{+2.51/14 8s (Sd6)} f5 {+0.65/9 3s} 19. Ng5 {+2.35/13 1s}
Rae8 {+1.05/12 15s (e4)} 20. Nd5 {+2.33/13 2s} f4 {+1.49/12
12s (Dc6)} 21. Rg4 {+2.60/13 2s} Qc6 {+2.12/14 5s} 22. Ne4
{+2.75/16 13s (Kg1)} Qa4 {+2.04/14 2s} 23. Nef6 {+2.26/13
4s (Sdf6)} Rxf6 {+1.83/16 12s} 24. Nxf6 {+2.01/13 5s} Rb8
{+2.15/16 3s (Tf8)} 25. Bd5 {+2.80/14 4s} Kg7 {+2.52/15 2s}
26. Ne4 {+2.97/15 5s (Sh5+)} a5 {+2.68/13 3s (Dxa3)}
27. Ng5 {+3.27/13 5s} Re8 {+2.52/11 4s (h6)} 28. Rgg1
{+3.51/13 3s (Lf7)} Qd7 {+3.60/13 2s (axb4)} 29. bxa5
{+4.76/14 1s (Sf3)} f3 {+4.92/14 2s (h6)} 30. Rb1 {+6.37/14
2s (Sxf3)} Rb8 {+7.87/15 7s (b5)} 31. a6 {+7.08/12 1s
(Sxf3)} b5 {+6.89/13 1s} 32. Rbf1 {+8.65/14 2s (Sxf3)} 1-0
[/pgn]
Don't let Your tricky mind kick You out of paradise!

Andre
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:40 am

Re: Queensacrifice against Houdini3, correct or not?

Post by Andre » Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:13 pm

Komodo got 3 pieces for the Queen. This is more an exchange than a sacrifice

zullil
Posts: 5854
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: Queensacrifice against Houdini3, correct or not?

Post by zullil » Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:19 pm

[D]r2q1rk1/pp2pp1p/2p3pb/8/2PPPn2/2NQnN2/PP4PP/R3RBK1 w - -

Critter-1.6a (8 threads, 4GB hash, MultiPV=3) also prefers to give up the queen, but favors Black.

Code: Select all

25/78  23:11   13549M   9738K  -0.68 Qxe3 Nh3+ gxh3 Bxe3+ Rxe3 e5 d5 Kg7 Rae1 Qe7 a3 a5 Na4 Rad8 Kg2 Qc7 Rc3 h6 Bd3 Rfe8 Rf1 Rc8 Be2 Red8 Bd3 cxd5 cxd5 Qd6 Rfc1 Rxc3 Nxc3

25/78  23:11   13549M   9738K  -0.77 Qb1 e5 Rxe3 exd4 Re1 dxc3 bxc3 Qc7 Qb2 Qb6+ Qf2 Qxf2+ Kxf2 Rae8 g3 Ne6 Rad1 Nc5 e5 Bg7 Re3 Re7 Bg2 Rfe8

25/78  23:11   13549M   9738K  -2.43 Qd2 Nexg2 Kh1 Nxe1 Rxe1 Qd7 Qf2 Qg4 e5 Rad8 Qg3 Qf5 Ne4 Qh5 Qf2 Qg4 b4 Ne6 a4 Qf4 b5
I'll let the search continue for a while.

zullil
Posts: 5854
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:31 pm
Location: PA USA
Full name: Louis Zulli

Re: Queensacrifice against Houdini3, correct or not?

Post by zullil » Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:19 pm

zullil wrote:[D]r2q1rk1/pp2pp1p/2p3pb/8/2PPPn2/2NQnN2/PP4PP/R3RBK1 w - -

Critter-1.6a (8 threads, 4GB hash, MultiPV=3) also prefers to give up the queen, but favors Black.

Code: Select all

25/78  23:11   13549M   9738K  -0.68 Qxe3 Nh3+ gxh3 Bxe3+ Rxe3 e5 d5 Kg7 Rae1 Qe7 a3 a5 Na4 Rad8 Kg2 Qc7 Rc3 h6 Bd3 Rfe8 Rf1 Rc8 Be2 Red8 Bd3 cxd5 cxd5 Qd6 Rfc1 Rxc3 Nxc3

25/78  23:11   13549M   9738K  -0.77 Qb1 e5 Rxe3 exd4 Re1 dxc3 bxc3 Qc7 Qb2 Qb6+ Qf2 Qxf2+ Kxf2 Rae8 g3 Ne6 Rad1 Nc5 e5 Bg7 Re3 Re7 Bg2 Rfe8

25/78  23:11   13549M   9738K  -2.43 Qd2 Nexg2 Kh1 Nxe1 Rxe1 Qd7 Qf2 Qg4 e5 Rad8 Qg3 Qf5 Ne4 Qh5 Qf2 Qg4 b4 Ne6 a4 Qf4 b5
I'll let the search continue for a while.

Code: Select all

27/78  82:11   49338M  10004K  -0.67 Qxe3 Nh3+ gxh3 Bxe3+ Rxe3 e5 d5 Kg7 Rae1 Qe7 a3 a5 Na4 Rad8 Kg2 Rfe8 Nb6 h6 h4 Qc7 Rb3 c5 Na4 Rd6 h5 g5 Be2 Rf6 Nd2 b6 Bg4 Rf4 Bf5

27/78  82:11   49338M  10004K  -0.84 Qb1 e5 Rxe3 exd4 Re1 dxc3 bxc3 Qc7 Qc2 Ne6 Qf2 Rfd8 Kh1 Qb6 Qe2 Rd7 Rad1 Re7 e5 Rae8 Qe4 Qa5 Qh4 Bg7 Rd2 Qxc3 Rd6 Qb4 Rd2 Nc5 Qd4 Rd7

27/78  82:11   49338M  10004K  -2.50 Qd2 Nexg2 Kh1 Nxe1 Rxe1 Qd7 e5 Rad8 Ne4 Qg4 Qc3 Ne6 Nf2 Qf4 Bg2 Rd7 Re4 Qc1+ Qxc1 Bxc1 Nd3 Ng5 Nxg5 Bxg5 Nc5 Rc7 h4 Bd2 Bh3 Kg7 Kg2 Rd8 Kg3 b6 Na6

Dicaste
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:23 pm
Location: Istanbul, TURKEY

Re: Queensacrifice against Houdini3, correct or not?

Post by Dicaste » Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:32 pm

Rampage found immediately.

Code: Select all

FEN: r2q1rk1/pp2pp1p/2p3pb/8/2PPPn2/2NQnN2/PP4PP/R3RBK1 w - - 0 1 

Rampage OWNAGE x64:
  4/16	00:00.049	       2,069	2,069,000	-0.40	Qd2 Ng4 Qc2 Bg7
  4/16	00:00.055	       2,592	1,296,000	-0.01	Qb1 Ng4 h3 Nf6 e5
  5/16	00:00.057	       3,541	1,180,000	 0.00	Qb1 Ng4 h3 Nf6 Qc2
  6/17	00:00.125	       9,176	125,000	-0.09	Qb1 Nxf1 Rxf1 e5 dxe5 Qb6+ Kh1 Rad8 Qc2 Bg7
  7/17	00:00.340	      11,531	39,000	-0.09	Qb1 Nxf1 Rxf1 e5 dxe5 Qb6+ Kh1 Rad8 Qc2 Bg7
  8/23	00:00.406	      48,442	135,000	-0.39	Qb1 e5 g3 exd4 gxf4 Nxf1 Rd1 Nxh2 Kxh2 Bxf4+ Kg2
  9/25	00:00.495	     101,018	225,000	-0.22	Qb1 e5 d5 Ng4 Na4 cxd5 cxd5 Rc8 g3 Nh5 Qd3 Qd6 h3 Ngf6
 10/25	00:00.546	     178,880	359,000	-0.18	Qb1 e5 d5 Ng4 Na4 Qd6 g3 Nh5 c5 Qd7 h3
 11/34	00:00.845	     544,589	683,000	-0.48	Qb1 e5 d5 Qb6 Na4 Qb4 b3 Nxf1 Rxf1 cxd5 exd5 b5 Nb2 Qc5+ Kh1 bxc4 bxc4 Bg7 Qc2 Rac8
 12/34	00:01.026	     720,883	737,000	-0.48	Qb1 e5 d5 Qb6 Na4 Qb4 b3 Nxf1 Rxf1 cxd5 exd5 b5 Nb2 Qc5+ Kh1 bxc4 bxc4 Bg7 Qc2 Rac8
 13/40	00:01.745	   1,837,691	1,082,000	-0.51	Qb1 e5 Rxe3 exd4 Re1 dxc3 bxc3 Qe7 Qb4 c5 Qb2 Rad8 e5 Nd3 Bxd3 Rxd3 Rad1 Be3+ Kh1 Rfd8 Rxd3 Rxd3
 14/40	00:02.068	   2,382,911	1,180,000	-0.47	Qb1 e5 Rxe3 exd4 Re1 dxc3 bxc3 Qb6+ Kh1 Rfd8 Qc2 Qc5 Rab1 b6 g3 Ne6 e5 Rd7 Rbd1 Rad8 Kg2 a6 Rxd7 Rxd7
 15/40	00:02.923	   4,614,577	1,605,000	-0.54	Qb1 e5 Rxe3 exd4 Re1 dxc3 bxc3 Qb6+ Kh1 Ne6 e5 Rfd8 Qc2 Qc7 Rab1 Nc5 g3 Bg7 Kg2 Rac8 Rbd1 Rxd1 Qxd1
 15/40	00:03.295	   5,931,830	1,826,000	-0.44	Qxe3 Nh3+ gxh3 Bxe3+ Rxe3 f6 Kg2 Qb6 Re2 Qc7 Rd1 Rad8 d5 cxd5 exd5 Qxc4 Rxe7 Qb4 Re2 Rfe8 Rxe8+ Rxe8
 16/40	00:03.984	   8,365,532	2,124,000	-0.43	Qxe3 Nh3+ gxh3 Bxe3+ Rxe3 f6 Kg2 Qa5 Rd1 e5 Red3 Rad8 d5 Qc5 R3d2 Kg7 d6 Rd7 a3 a5 h4 Qe3
 17/40	00:06.786	  19,983,049	2,965,000	-0.38	Qxe3 Nh3+ gxh3 Bxe3+ Rxe3 f6 Kg2 e5 d5 Qe7 Re2 Rad8 Rd2 a6 Rad1 Qc5 d6 b5 cxb5 axb5 d7 Kg7 a4 b4 Na2 b3
 18/40	00:08.389	  26,441,326	3,169,000	-0.39	Qxe3 Nh3+ gxh3 Bxe3+ Rxe3 f6 Kg2 e5 d5 Qe7 Rd3 Qc5 Rd2 Rad8 Rad1 Kg7 Na4 Qa5 Nc3 cxd5 Rxd5 Rxd5 Rxd5 Qb6 Rd7+ Rf7
 18/55	00:18.007	  67,791,043	3,774,000	-0.39	Qxe3 Nh3+ gxh3 Bxe3+ Rxe3 f6 Kg2 e5 d5 Qe7 Rd3 Qc5 Rd2 Rad8 Rad1 Kg7 Na4 Qa5 Nc3 cxd5 Rxd5 Rxd5 Rxd5 Qb6 Rd7+ Rf7
Best move: Qxe3, Value: -0.39, Depth: 18/55, Time: 00:18.020, 67,791,043 Nodes, 3,774 kN/sec.

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lucasart
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Re: Queensacrifice against Houdini3, correct or not?

Post by lucasart » Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:53 pm

Henryval wrote:This game shows the positional abilitys of a program. Komodo 3 attack won this Queensac against Houdini3. I can tell You...not much programs will do that. Discussion opened.

Houdini3 itself prefers Qb1 on my Computer.


[pgn]
[Event "3 Minuten/Partie + 1 Sekunden/Zug"]
[Site "Engine Match"]
[Date "2013.02.16"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Komodo64 3 attack2"]
[Black "Houdini 3 Pro x64"]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r2q1rk1/pp2pp1p/2p3pb/8/2PPPn2/2NQnN2/PP4PP/R3RBK1 w - -"]

1. Qxe3 {0.00/17 4s} Nh3+ {-0.60/17 2s} 2. gxh3 {-0.35/19
16s} Bxe3+ {-0.61/16 1s} 3. Rxe3 {-0.35/20 5s} e5 {-0.55/18
8s (f6)} 4. d5 {-0.02/18 3s} Kg7 {-0.51/17 5s (Db6)} 5. Kh1
{+0.21/16 4s (Kg2)} Qb6 {-0.61/18 3s (f6)} 6. Re2 {+0.20/18
6s} f6 {-0.55/17 7s} 7. Rae1 {+0.20/16 5s (Kg2)} Rfd8
{-0.51/17 26s (Tad8)} 8. Rg2 {+0.20/15 2s (Td2)} Rg8
{-0.47/14 2s (a5)} 9. a3 {+0.36/15 5s (h4)} Qc7 {-0.51/11
7s} 10. Bd3 {+0.36/12 2s (h4)} Qd7 {-0.45/9 3s (Tge8)}
11. Rg3 {+0.52/12 1s (h4)} a6 {-0.41/10 7s (Tac8)} 12. c5
{+1.06/14 4s (Tf1)} Rab8 {-0.23/9 3s (Tgf8)} 13. Nd2
{+1.34/16 3s (Kg2)} cxd5 {-0.10/8 6s (b5)} 14. exd5
{+1.49/14 3s (Sxd5)} Rge8 {+0.04/8 6s (Tbe8)} 15. Nde4
{+1.32/15 4s (Sc4)} Rf8 {+0.33/11 2s (f5)} 16. Bc4
{+1.35/15 10s (Sd6)} Kh6 {+0.22/15 3s (f5)} 17. b4
{+1.83/14 6s (Kg2)} Ra8 {+0.19/10 4s (Kg7)} 18. d6
{+2.51/14 8s (Sd6)} f5 {+0.65/9 3s} 19. Ng5 {+2.35/13 1s}
Rae8 {+1.05/12 15s (e4)} 20. Nd5 {+2.33/13 2s} f4 {+1.49/12
12s (Dc6)} 21. Rg4 {+2.60/13 2s} Qc6 {+2.12/14 5s} 22. Ne4
{+2.75/16 13s (Kg1)} Qa4 {+2.04/14 2s} 23. Nef6 {+2.26/13
4s (Sdf6)} Rxf6 {+1.83/16 12s} 24. Nxf6 {+2.01/13 5s} Rb8
{+2.15/16 3s (Tf8)} 25. Bd5 {+2.80/14 4s} Kg7 {+2.52/15 2s}
26. Ne4 {+2.97/15 5s (Sh5+)} a5 {+2.68/13 3s (Dxa3)}
27. Ng5 {+3.27/13 5s} Re8 {+2.52/11 4s (h6)} 28. Rgg1
{+3.51/13 3s (Lf7)} Qd7 {+3.60/13 2s (axb4)} 29. bxa5
{+4.76/14 1s (Sf3)} f3 {+4.92/14 2s (h6)} 30. Rb1 {+6.37/14
2s (Sxf3)} Rb8 {+7.87/15 7s (b5)} 31. a6 {+7.08/12 1s
(Sxf3)} b5 {+6.89/13 1s} 32. Rbf1 {+8.65/14 2s (Sxf3)} 1-0
[/pgn]
Sacrificing the queen for three minor pieces, and a strong pawn center, is not unreasonable at all. In my engine DiscoCheck, the queen value is almost equal to 3 minor pieces, so it will not hesitate to sac a Queen for 3 minors.

So I wouldn't call it a "sacrifice", but an exchange! (albeit an unusual one)
Theory and practice sometimes clash. And when that happens, theory loses. Every single time.

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Evert
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Re: Queensacrifice against Houdini3, correct or not?

Post by Evert » Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:01 pm

Not sure if this is a good sign, given its strength, but Jazz plays Qxe3 immediately and doesn't consider anything else.

carldaman
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Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Queensacrifice against Houdini3, correct or not?

Post by carldaman » Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:04 pm

Hi Joe, curious, how is "Komodo3 attack" different from the default Komodo3?

Thanks,
Carl

Modern Times
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Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:02 pm

Re: Queensacrifice against Houdini3, correct or not?

Post by Modern Times » Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:21 pm

Henryval wrote:
Houdini3 itself prefers Qb1 on my Computer.
Not on my computer, here Houdini itself would exchange the queen in that situation. Takes a minute to find it on my Phenom II X6:

Code: Select all

Engine: Houdini 3 x64 (1024 MB)
by Robert Houdart


 18/44	 0:01 	-0.50++	1.Qb1 (14.444.428) 10876
 18/44	 0:01 	-0.34++	1.Qb1 (20.223.762) 11118
 18/55	 0:02 	-0.43 	1.Qb1 e5 2.d5 Qb6 3.Kh1 Ng4 4.Nd1 cxd5 5.exd5 Rfe8 6.g3 Nh5 7.Bh3 Nhf6 8.Bxg4 Nxg4 9.Qc2 Qd6 10.Nc3 Rac8 11.Qe2 e4 12.Nd4 f5 13.Ne6 Rxe6 14.dxe6 (24.085.377) 11023
 19/55	 0:02 	-0.43 	1.Qb1 e5 2.d5 Qb6 3.Kh1 Ng4 4.Nd1 cxd5 5.exd5 Rfe8 6.g3 Nh5 7.Bh3 Nhf6 8.Bxg4 Nxg4 9.Qc2 Qd6 10.Nc3 Rac8 11.Qe2 e4 12.Nd4 f5 13.Ne6 Rxe6 14.dxe6 (30.495.350) 11207
 20/55	 0:03 	-0.47 	1.Qb1 e5 2.d5 Qb6 3.Kh1 Ng4 4.Nd1 cxd5 5.exd5 Rfe8 6.g3 Nh5 7.Bh3 Nhf6 8.Re2 Qd6 9.Nc3 Qc5 10.Bxg4 Nxg4 11.Qe1 e4 12.Nxe4 Qxc4 13.Nc3 Rxe2 14.Qxe2 (44.789.657) 11493
 21/55	 0:04 	-0.47 	1.Qb1 e5 2.d5 Qb6 3.Kh1 Ng4 4.Nd1 cxd5 5.exd5 Rfe8 6.g3 Nh5 7.Bh3 Nhf6 8.Re2 Qd6 9.Nc3 Qc5 10.Bxg4 Nxg4 11.Qe1 e4 12.Nxe4 Qxc4 13.Nc3 Rxe2 14.Qxe2 (58.751.945) 11845
 22/60	 0:12 	-0.55--	1.Qb1 e5 (152.116.132) 11871
 22/62	 0:18 	-0.72--	1.Qb1 e5 (216.857.615) 11887
 22/62	 1:10 	-0.50 	1.Qxe3 Nh3+ 2.gxh3 Bxe3+ 3.Rxe3 e5 4.dxe5 Qb6 5.Rae1 Rad8 6.b3 Kg7 7.Kg2 Rd7 8.Rd3 Rxd3 9.Bxd3 Qa5 10.Rc1 Rd8 11.Be2 Qc5 12.Rc2 h6 13.h4 a5 14.Bf1 (861.109.887) 12273
 23/62	 1:12 	-0.53 	1.Qxe3 Nh3+ 2.gxh3 Bxe3+ 3.Rxe3 e5 4.dxe5 Qb6 5.Rae1 Rad8 6.b3 Kg7 7.Kg2 Qa5 8.h4 h6 9.Rc1 Rfe8 10.Rd3 Rxd3 11.Bxd3 Rd8 12.Bf1 Qc5 13.Rc2 a5 14.Kg3 (895.084.750) 12282
 24/62	 1:17 	-0.50 	1.Qxe3 Nh3+ 2.gxh3 Bxe3+ 3.Rxe3 e5 4.dxe5 Qb6 5.Rae1 Rad8 6.b3 Kg7 7.Kg2 Qa5 8.h4 h6 9.Rc1 Rfe8 10.Rd3 Rxd3 11.Bxd3 Rd8 12.Bf1 Qc5 13.Rc2 a5 14.Na4 (952.637.845) 12287
 25/62	 1:36 	-0.46 	1.Qxe3 Nh3+ 2.gxh3 Bxe3+ 3.Rxe3 e5 4.dxe5 Qb6 5.Rae1 Rad8 6.b3 h6 7.Kg2 Qa5 8.Rb1 Qc5 9.Ree1 Qb4 10.Rbc1 Kg7 11.Be2 Qa3 12.Rg1 Rfe8 13.h4 Qb4 14.Rge1 (1.196.583.276) 12386
 25/62	 1:42 	-0.46 	1.Qxe3 Nh3+ 2.gxh3 Bxe3+ 3.Rxe3 e5 4.dxe5 Qb6 5.Rae1 Rad8 6.b3 h6 7.Kg2 Qa5 8.Rb1 Qc5 9.Ree1 Qb4 10.Rbc1 Kg7 11.Be2 Qa3 12.Rc2 Rfe8 13.Rd1 Qb4 14.h4 (1.269.268.157) 12389

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