Borislav Ivanov: a Lilov's add-on

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Hood
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Re: Borislav Ivanov: a Lilov's add-on

Post by Hood » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:51 am

Here Ivannov and BCF are sides of conflict. So the judgement of the matter shall be done by an independent side not by BCF. Prosecutor can not be a judge in his matter.
Don wrote:
reflectionofpower wrote:If the guy had showed up for the testing he could've validated his reputation but now with the allegations he has only painted himself into a cheater's corner.
There is a clear pattern that tends to occur with cheating and it starts with bluffing ( "I'll cooperate with any investigation" ) followed by some dubiously constructed reason why you cannot cooperate or refuse to cooperate.

In general there is either an excuse, or an adamant refusal. If there is a refusal, the reason is always that you will not "play their game" with assertions that the game is rigged and you view it as a joke. It's so transparent but it seems to take a lot of people in. The "victim" card is especially powerful because a lot of people can relate to that anyway - most of us have been victimized at least a few times in our lives and when it happens it's often sensationalized.
Polish National tragedy in Smoleńsk. President and all delegation murdered or killed.
Cui bono ?

There are not bugs free programs.
There are programs with undiscovered bugs.




Ashes to ashes dust to dust. Alleluia.

Dr. Axel Schumacher
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Re: Borislav Ivanov: a Lilov's add-on

Post by Dr. Axel Schumacher » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:00 am

Hood wrote: ...Telepathy, hypnosis and auto-hypnosis is well known in science, by the way.
I wonder what "science" that is...??!
Scientology, Hogwarts..?? :shock:
"A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five".
Groucho Marx

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Don
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Re: Borislav Ivanov: a Lilov's add-on

Post by Don » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:56 am

Hood wrote:Here Ivannov and BCF are sides of conflict. So the judgement of the matter shall be done by an independent side not by BCF. Prosecutor can not be a judge in his matter.
The BCF is the authority in this matter so really they are not sides in a conflict. The "sides" are Boris and the GM's and player that are complaining about having to play a cheater. Ivanov did not like the ruling of the BCF so he decided that the BCF was the "opposing side" in this matter and tried to sue them - and he was not successful. In other words, the BCF's point of view we upheld by the courts. Ivanov also decided that not only was the BCF his enemy but he also attacked the players - so the poor guy wants to paint himself as the victim, the poor misunderstood super genius and new Bobby Fischer of chess. We should not cooperate with this but fight against it and that's what most are doing.

Now Ivanov could decide the courts are his enemy too - that appears to be his pattern - and appeal to a higher court thus making the original court the opposing side. But my point is that the BCF is not a legitimate "side" in this conflict. They are involved only because Inanov decided they were his ememy and he evidently wanted to changed the focus away from the players who he attacked early onto the BCF and he will change it again to whoever disagrees with him.
Don wrote:
reflectionofpower wrote:If the guy had showed up for the testing he could've validated his reputation but now with the allegations he has only painted himself into a cheater's corner.
There is a clear pattern that tends to occur with cheating and it starts with bluffing ( "I'll cooperate with any investigation" ) followed by some dubiously constructed reason why you cannot cooperate or refuse to cooperate.

In general there is either an excuse, or an adamant refusal. If there is a refusal, the reason is always that you will not "play their game" with assertions that the game is rigged and you view it as a joke. It's so transparent but it seems to take a lot of people in. The "victim" card is especially powerful because a lot of people can relate to that anyway - most of us have been victimized at least a few times in our lives and when it happens it's often sensationalized.
Capital punishment would be more effective as a preventive measure if it were administered prior to the crime.

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Don
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Re: Borislav Ivanov: a Lilov's add-on

Post by Don » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:59 am

Hood wrote:Here Ivannov and BCF are sides of conflict. So the judgement of the matter shall be done by an independent side not by BCF. Prosecutor can not be a judge in his matter.
The BCF WAS the prosecutor and the ruling authority in a matter between Ivanov and the players. It's just the Ivanov decided to attack them too - basically appealing to a higher court. He did make this appeal and lost, the courts upheld the original actions by the BCF.

So now I suppose you will say the courts are also victimizing this poor man?
Don wrote:
reflectionofpower wrote:If the guy had showed up for the testing he could've validated his reputation but now with the allegations he has only painted himself into a cheater's corner.
There is a clear pattern that tends to occur with cheating and it starts with bluffing ( "I'll cooperate with any investigation" ) followed by some dubiously constructed reason why you cannot cooperate or refuse to cooperate.

In general there is either an excuse, or an adamant refusal. If there is a refusal, the reason is always that you will not "play their game" with assertions that the game is rigged and you view it as a joke. It's so transparent but it seems to take a lot of people in. The "victim" card is especially powerful because a lot of people can relate to that anyway - most of us have been victimized at least a few times in our lives and when it happens it's often sensationalized.
Capital punishment would be more effective as a preventive measure if it were administered prior to the crime.

Hood
Posts: 653
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:52 am
Location: Polska, Warszawa

Re: Borislav Ivanov: a Lilov's add-on

Post by Hood » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:42 pm

Don wrote:
Hood wrote:Here Ivannov and BCF are sides of conflict. So the judgement of the matter shall be done by an independent side not by BCF. Prosecutor can not be a judge in his matter.
The BCF WAS the prosecutor and the ruling authority in a matter between Ivanov and the players. It's just the Ivanov decided to attack them too - basically appealing to a higher court. He did make this appeal and lost, the courts upheld the original actions by the BCF.

So now I suppose you will say the courts are also victimizing this poor man?
Don wrote:
reflectionofpower wrote:If the guy had showed up for the testing he could've validated his reputation but now with the allegations he has only painted himself into a cheater's corner.
There is a clear pattern that tends to occur with cheating and it starts with bluffing ( "I'll cooperate with any investigation" ) followed by some dubiously constructed reason why you cannot cooperate or refuse to cooperate.

In general there is either an excuse, or an adamant refusal. If there is a refusal, the reason is always that you will not "play their game" with assertions that the game is rigged and you view it as a joke. It's so transparent but it seems to take a lot of people in. The "victim" card is especially powerful because a lot of people can relate to that anyway - most of us have been victimized at least a few times in our lives and when it happens it's often sensationalized.
Courts in postcommunist countries are working differrent then in US.
Polish National tragedy in Smoleńsk. President and all delegation murdered or killed.
Cui bono ?

There are not bugs free programs.
There are programs with undiscovered bugs.




Ashes to ashes dust to dust. Alleluia.

Hood
Posts: 653
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:52 am
Location: Polska, Warszawa

Re: Borislav Ivanov: a Lilov's add-on

Post by Hood » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:44 pm

Dr. Axel Schumacher wrote:
Hood wrote: ...Telepathy, hypnosis and auto-hypnosis is well known in science, by the way.
I wonder what "science" that is...??!
Scientology, Hogwarts..?? :shock:
Ask NASA first.
Polish National tragedy in Smoleńsk. President and all delegation murdered or killed.
Cui bono ?

There are not bugs free programs.
There are programs with undiscovered bugs.




Ashes to ashes dust to dust. Alleluia.

Hood
Posts: 653
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:52 am
Location: Polska, Warszawa

Re: Borislav Ivanov: a Lilov's add-on

Post by Hood » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:48 pm

Don wrote:
Hood wrote:Here Ivannov and BCF are sides of conflict. So the judgement of the matter shall be done by an independent side not by BCF. Prosecutor can not be a judge in his matter.
The BCF WAS the prosecutor and the ruling authority in a matter between Ivanov and the players. It's just the Ivanov decided to attack them too - basically appealing to a higher court. He did make this appeal and lost, the courts upheld the original actions by the BCF.

So now I suppose you will say the courts are also victimizing this poor man?
Don wrote:
reflectionofpower wrote:If the guy had showed up for the testing he could've validated his reputation but now with the allegations he has only painted himself into a cheater's corner.
There is a clear pattern that tends to occur with cheating and it starts with bluffing ( "I'll cooperate with any investigation" ) followed by some dubiously constructed reason why you cannot cooperate or refuse to cooperate.

In general there is either an excuse, or an adamant refusal. If there is a refusal, the reason is always that you will not "play their game" with assertions that the game is rigged and you view it as a joke. It's so transparent but it seems to take a lot of people in. The "victim" card is especially powerful because a lot of people can relate to that anyway - most of us have been victimized at least a few times in our lives and when it happens it's often sensationalized.
"was prosecutor and ruling authority" that is a point.

I think you are a camel, I have prepared a test to check it . Could you pass that test, please?
Polish National tragedy in Smoleńsk. President and all delegation murdered or killed.
Cui bono ?

There are not bugs free programs.
There are programs with undiscovered bugs.




Ashes to ashes dust to dust. Alleluia.

User avatar
Don
Posts: 5106
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:27 pm

Re: Borislav Ivanov: a Lilov's add-on

Post by Don » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:33 pm

Hood wrote:
Don wrote:
Hood wrote:Here Ivannov and BCF are sides of conflict. So the judgement of the matter shall be done by an independent side not by BCF. Prosecutor can not be a judge in his matter.
The BCF WAS the prosecutor and the ruling authority in a matter between Ivanov and the players. It's just the Ivanov decided to attack them too - basically appealing to a higher court. He did make this appeal and lost, the courts upheld the original actions by the BCF.

So now I suppose you will say the courts are also victimizing this poor man?
Don wrote:
reflectionofpower wrote:If the guy had showed up for the testing he could've validated his reputation but now with the allegations he has only painted himself into a cheater's corner.
There is a clear pattern that tends to occur with cheating and it starts with bluffing ( "I'll cooperate with any investigation" ) followed by some dubiously constructed reason why you cannot cooperate or refuse to cooperate.

In general there is either an excuse, or an adamant refusal. If there is a refusal, the reason is always that you will not "play their game" with assertions that the game is rigged and you view it as a joke. It's so transparent but it seems to take a lot of people in. The "victim" card is especially powerful because a lot of people can relate to that anyway - most of us have been victimized at least a few times in our lives and when it happens it's often sensationalized.
"was prosecutor and ruling authority" that is a point.
The point is that the BCF is the ruling authority - it is a federation and at least in the US, the courts try not to be heavy handed and so they respect the rights of clubs and organizations and federations to make their own rules and they are very careful about asserting themselves - that is what living in a free country is supposed to be all about. The idea is that they will assert themselves only in cases where these organizations are breaking the law or seriously violating the rights of the members. I can form a club or association without having the government step in and micro-mange it and I like that.

I have noticed that a lot of people want the government to step in and assert themselves when things don't go their way, but want them to stay out of their business when they don't. Is that how you feel?

So now the courts DID step in but only because your boy tried to sue the BCF which forced the courts into the process. The courts did exactly what they should have done. There ruling was in favor of the BCF. Now I don't think the courts were saying that Ivanov was cheating - I think they were simply upholding the Federations right to govern themselves in affairs such as this. I would have been offended if the courts had ruled any other way - regardless of which side of this issue I would be on. This is after all just a game.

It seems like whenever something like this happens people come forward with all sorts of legal talk which reflects a certain ignorance about how the court systems work in almost every country. If you and your wife get into an argument do you take her to court to get a ruling on who is right? Or who should get to hold the remote control? Of course not, that would really be over the top silly. The average person doesn't want the government in their faces making decisions for them and settling their arguments and this applies more than just in the family, it works in small organizations too. If you are playing a game and touch a piece the tournament director may make a ruling against you - do you take them to court?

Even if you agree that this touch move problem should not go to court do you want to apply "proof" standards that would only be used in a murder trial. For example if the player accuses you of touch move and there is a witness is it proof? If they witness says, "yes, I saw him touch the piece too", what ruling should the TD make? If you say, "I touched it but I did not intend to, it was an accident" but your opponent and the witness disagree's should an investigation be launched that will require hundreds of man hours of time and ridiculous expense?

Things like this get out of hand very very quickly if you treat everything like a murder trial. That is why the rules of FIDE and other tournament organization will always have the disclaimer, "the ruling of the Tournament Director is final." It is not a device to make them all powerful and dictatorial but simply to avoid ridiculous and childish tantrums and protests. And yes, you can take anyone you want to court and you could take the TD to court over this but the court is going to laugh at you - even if you are right and even if you really didn't mean to touch the piece - for the same reason they will not settle petty arguments in the family.

Now I believe the evidence is overwhelming and you say there is zero evidence. That is perfectly fine with me but BCF will probably make a permanent ban or perhaps FIDE will. Or maybe they won't, I cannot predict for sure what they will do. But they won't have to have DNA evidence and fingerprints to do so - and the courts are not going to force them to have extraordinary convincing iron clad proof in order to allow FIDE to make a decision. It's NOT A MURDER TRIAL. They will make a judgement that he is cheating or that he isn't and if they say yes he is it will not be 100% proof (even finding the device on him is not 100%) but it will be proof beyond a reasonable doubt. They could ban him even if all they have is a vague suspicion and be within their rights but they would never do that as it would alienate all players who would rightfully protest if they were really that arbitrary.

I think you are a camel, I have prepared a test to check it . Could you pass that test, please?
Capital punishment would be more effective as a preventive measure if it were administered prior to the crime.

Dr. Axel Schumacher
Posts: 1191
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:32 pm
Location: Cologne-Uppsala-St. Petersburg-Cambridge-Toronto-Munich-Basel
Contact:

Re: Borislav Ivanov: a Lilov's add-on

Post by Dr. Axel Schumacher » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:10 pm

Hood wrote:
Dr. Axel Schumacher wrote:
Hood wrote: ...Telepathy, hypnosis and auto-hypnosis is well known in science, by the way.
I wonder what "science" that is...??!
Scientology, Hogwarts..?? :shock:
Ask NASA first.
Why?
"A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five".
Groucho Marx

Hood
Posts: 653
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:52 am
Location: Polska, Warszawa

Re: Borislav Ivanov: a Lilov's add-on

Post by Hood » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:59 pm

[quote="Don""was prosecutor and ruling authority" that is a point.



It seems like whenever something like this happens people come forward with all sorts of legal talk which reflects a certain ignorance about how the court systems work in almost every country.

[/quote]
You have no idea, how courts are 'working' in non democratic countries.
Polish National tragedy in Smoleńsk. President and all delegation murdered or killed.
Cui bono ?

There are not bugs free programs.
There are programs with undiscovered bugs.




Ashes to ashes dust to dust. Alleluia.

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