Test Position: A line-opening king move

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zullil
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Test Position: A line-opening king move

Post by zullil » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:04 pm

[D]rn1q1rk1/ppp2pp1/6p1/6b1/2BPp1P1/2P5/P1P2P2/R1BQK2R w KQ - 0 14

After a long search, the latest Stockfish says Ke2. What do other engines think?

See http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 43&t=48416 for more.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Test Position: A line-opening king move

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:52 pm

zullil wrote:[D]rn1q1rk1/ppp2pp1/6p1/6b1/2BPp1P1/2P5/P1P2P2/R1BQK2R w KQ - 0 14

After a long search, the latest Stockfish says Ke2. What do other engines think?

See http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 43&t=48416 for more.
Hi Louis.
To duplicate myself again: I am not an engine, but I say Be3 :D (just like playing in the park, everyone has a right of opinion, even weaker players)

PS. PV line following shortly...

Dan Astrachan
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Re: Test Position: A line-opening king move

Post by Dan Astrachan » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:25 am

[D]rn1q1rk1/ppp2pp1/6p1/6b1/2BPp1P1/2P5/P1P2P2/R1BQK2R w KQ - 0 14

Critter 1.6a, 4-Gb hash, 7 hours and 17 minutes of search time, depth 31

Bm: Ke2, eval: 0.68

[pgn][FEN "rn1q1rk1/ppp2pp1/6p1/6b1/2BPp1P1/2P5/P1P2P2/R1BQK2R w KQ - 0 14"]14.Ke2 Nc6 15.Qg1 Na5 16.Qh2 Bh4 17.Bb3 Nxb3 18.axb3 g5 19.Bxg5 Qxg5 20.Qxh4 Qxh4 21.Rxh4 f6 22.Ke3 Rfe8 23.Rh5 a6 24.c4 Rab8 25.d5 Rbd8 26.Rah1 Kf7 27.c5 Rb8 28.Ra1 Rh8 29.Rxh8 Rxh8 30.Kxe4 Rh2 31.Ke3 Rh3+ 32.f3 Rh2 33.c3 Rc2 34.Kd3 Rf2 35.Ke4 Re2+ 36.Kd4 Rd2+ 37.Kc4[/pgn]
Computer used: Intel Core i7 875K @ 2.93GH, 4 cores, 12 Gb of RAM

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: Test Position: A line-opening king move

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:16 pm

Dan Astrachan wrote:[D]rn1q1rk1/ppp2pp1/6p1/6b1/2BPp1P1/2P5/P1P2P2/R1BQK2R w KQ - 0 14

Critter 1.6a, 4-Gb hash, 7 hours and 17 minutes of search time, depth 31

Bm: Ke2, eval: 0.68

[pgn][FEN "rn1q1rk1/ppp2pp1/6p1/6b1/2BPp1P1/2P5/P1P2P2/R1BQK2R w KQ - 0 14"]14.Ke2 Nc6 15.Qg1 Na5 16.Qh2 Bh4 17.Bb3 Nxb3 18.axb3 g5 19.Bxg5 Qxg5 20.Qxh4 Qxh4 21.Rxh4 f6 22.Ke3 Rfe8 23.Rh5 a6 24.c4 Rab8 25.d5 Rbd8 26.Rah1 Kf7 27.c5 Rb8 28.Ra1 Rh8 29.Rxh8 Rxh8 30.Kxe4 Rh2 31.Ke3 Rh3+ 32.f3 Rh2 33.c3 Rc2 34.Kd3 Rf2 35.Ke4 Re2+ 36.Kd4 Rd2+ 37.Kc4[/pgn]
Thanks Dan.
I think Critter deserved its daily wage after 7 hours and 17 minutes of search.

Any idea what Critter would play to 14.Be3?

zullil
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Re: Test Position: A line-opening king move

Post by zullil » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:44 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: Any idea what Critter would play to 14.Be3?

Code: Select all

25/58  06:46    3961M   9741K  -0.19 Nc6 a4 Qf6 Rb1 Bh4 Rxb7 Na5 Rxc7 Qd8 Rc5 Be7 Rd5 Qc8 Be2 Nc4 Bf4 Nb2 Qc1 Qxc3+ Kf1 Rfd8 Bd2 Qa3 c4 Rxd5 cxd5 Bb4 Bxb4 Qxb4 Qe3 Rc8 Qxe4 Rc1+ Kg2 Rxh1 Kxh1 Nxa4
Critter would play Nc6, with a small advantage to White. Based on this short search, anyway.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: Test Position: A line-opening king move

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:14 pm

zullil wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: Any idea what Critter would play to 14.Be3?

Code: Select all

25/58  06:46    3961M   9741K  -0.19 Nc6 a4 Qf6 Rb1 Bh4 Rxb7 Na5 Rxc7 Qd8 Rc5 Be7 Rd5 Qc8 Be2 Nc4 Bf4 Nb2 Qc1 Qxc3+ Kf1 Rfd8 Bd2 Qa3 c4 Rxd5 cxd5 Bb4 Bxb4 Qxb4 Qe3 Rc8 Qxe4 Rc1+ Kg2 Rxh1 Kxh1 Nxa4
Critter would play Nc6, with a small advantage to White. Based on this short search, anyway.
Instead of 16.Rb1 I would suggest 16.Rh3 Bh6 17.g5 Bg5 18.Qg4 and white should be winning (with threats on g6, Ke2, Rh1)

Maybe you could check that very briefly, Louis.
Thanks a lot for the help.

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Eelco de Groot
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Re: Test Position: A line-opening king move

Post by Eelco de Groot » Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:25 am

19. Ke2 is not a bad idea Lyudmil! The computer takes a long time to come up with that move. The initiative is not that big but Black is in the defensive slightly, maybe? The computer thinks it is a draw though..

14... Nc6 15. a4 Qf6 16. Rh3 Bh6 17. g5 Bg5 18. Qg4

[D]r4rk1/ppp2pp1/2n2qp1/6b1/P1BPp1Q1/2P1B2R/2P2P2/R3K3 b Q -

Engine: Stockfish 220613 RazorCut2 (512 MB)
by Tord Romstad, Marco Costalba and Joona Kiiski

39/76 14:38 -0.16-- 5...Bh6 6.O-O-O Ne7 7.Qxe4 c6 8.Qe5 Qxe5
9.dxe5 Rad8 10.Rdh1 Nf5 11.e6 fxe6
12.Bxe6+ Kh7 13.Bxf5 Rxf5 14.Bxh6 gxh6 (2.474.667.888) 2815

39/76 16:16 -0.02 5...Bh6 6.O-O-O Ne7 7.Qxe4 c6 8.Qe5 Qxe5
9.dxe5 Rad8 10.Rdh1 Nf5 11.e6 fxe6
12.Bxe6+ Kh7 13.Bxf5 Rxf5 14.Bxh6 gxh6
15.Rxh6+ Kg7 16.Rh7+ Kf6 17.Rxb7 Rxf2
18.Rxa7 Rdd2 (2.762.130.877) 2830

40/79 17:50 -0.10-- 5...Bh6 6.O-O-O Ne7 7.Qxe4 c6 8.Qe5 Qxe5
9.dxe5 Rad8 10.Rdh1 Nf5 11.e6 fxe6
12.Bxe6+ Kh7 13.Bxf5 Rxf5 14.Bxh6 (3.038.991.095) 2837

40/79 21:49 -0.18-- 5...Bh6 6.Ke2 (3.745.079.710) 2860

40/79 25:35 0.00 5...Bh6 6.Ke2 Ne7 7.Bxh6 gxh6 8.Rxh6 Kg7
9.Rah1 Rh8 10.Rxh8 Rxh8 11.Rxh8 Kxh8
12.Qxe4 c6 13.f4 Kg7 14.a5 g5
15.fxg5 Qxg5 16.Qf3 Nd5 17.Kd3 Nf4+
18.Kd2 f6 (4.458.635.453) 2903

41/88 33:56 -0.08-- 5...Bh6 6.O-O-O Ne7 7.Qxe4 Nf5
8.Bxh6 gxh6 (5.967.701.218) 2929

41/88 39:06 -0.16-- 5...Bh6 6.O-O-O Ne7 7.Qxe4 (6.875.321.183) 2930


41/88 45:55 -0.28-- 5...Bh6 6.O-O-O Na5 7.Ba2 Qf5 8.Qg3 g5
9.Rh5 Qg6 10.Rdh1 (8.042.219.097) 2919

There is a Fail Low with O-O-O at the end again but those are not accurate lines.

Eelco
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.
-- Brian W. Kernighan

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lucasart
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Re: Test Position: A line-opening king move

Post by lucasart » Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:44 am

zullil wrote:[D]rn1q1rk1/ppp2pp1/6p1/6b1/2BPp1P1/2P5/P1P2P2/R1BQK2R w KQ - 0 14

After a long search, the latest Stockfish says Ke2. What do other engines think?

See http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 43&t=48416 for more.
DiscoCheck prefers Ba3 here, followed simply by Be7 Bxe7 Qxe7, and Qd2 with OOO in mind...
[pgn]
[FEN "rn1q1rk1/ppp2pp1/6p1/6b1/2BPp1P1/2P5/P1P2P2/R1BQK2R w KQ - 0 14"]

14. Ba3 Be7 15. Bxe7 Qxe7 16. Qd2
[/pgn]

Perhaps not a plan suitable for feint hearted humans, that are afraid of open and complicated positions. But for a computer, that's fine.
Theory and practice sometimes clash. And when that happens, theory loses. Every single time.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Test Position: A line-opening king move

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:39 am

Eelco de Groot wrote:19. Ke2 is not a bad idea Lyudmil! The computer takes a long time to come up with that move. The initiative is not that big but Black is in the defensive slightly, maybe? The computer thinks it is a draw though..

14... Nc6 15. a4 Qf6 16. Rh3 Bh6 17. g5 Bg5 18. Qg4

[D]r4rk1/ppp2pp1/2n2qp1/6b1/P1BPp1Q1/2P1B2R/2P2P2/R3K3 b Q -

Engine: Stockfish 220613 RazorCut2 (512 MB)
by Tord Romstad, Marco Costalba and Joona Kiiski

39/76 14:38 -0.16-- 5...Bh6 6.O-O-O Ne7 7.Qxe4 c6 8.Qe5 Qxe5
9.dxe5 Rad8 10.Rdh1 Nf5 11.e6 fxe6
12.Bxe6+ Kh7 13.Bxf5 Rxf5 14.Bxh6 gxh6 (2.474.667.888) 2815

39/76 16:16 -0.02 5...Bh6 6.O-O-O Ne7 7.Qxe4 c6 8.Qe5 Qxe5
9.dxe5 Rad8 10.Rdh1 Nf5 11.e6 fxe6
12.Bxe6+ Kh7 13.Bxf5 Rxf5 14.Bxh6 gxh6
15.Rxh6+ Kg7 16.Rh7+ Kf6 17.Rxb7 Rxf2
18.Rxa7 Rdd2 (2.762.130.877) 2830

40/79 17:50 -0.10-- 5...Bh6 6.O-O-O Ne7 7.Qxe4 c6 8.Qe5 Qxe5
9.dxe5 Rad8 10.Rdh1 Nf5 11.e6 fxe6
12.Bxe6+ Kh7 13.Bxf5 Rxf5 14.Bxh6 (3.038.991.095) 2837

40/79 21:49 -0.18-- 5...Bh6 6.Ke2 (3.745.079.710) 2860

40/79 25:35 0.00 5...Bh6 6.Ke2 Ne7 7.Bxh6 gxh6 8.Rxh6 Kg7
9.Rah1 Rh8 10.Rxh8 Rxh8 11.Rxh8 Kxh8
12.Qxe4 c6 13.f4 Kg7 14.a5 g5
15.fxg5 Qxg5 16.Qf3 Nd5 17.Kd3 Nf4+
18.Kd2 f6 (4.458.635.453) 2903

41/88 33:56 -0.08-- 5...Bh6 6.O-O-O Ne7 7.Qxe4 Nf5
8.Bxh6 gxh6 (5.967.701.218) 2929

41/88 39:06 -0.16-- 5...Bh6 6.O-O-O Ne7 7.Qxe4 (6.875.321.183) 2930


41/88 45:55 -0.28-- 5...Bh6 6.O-O-O Na5 7.Ba2 Qf5 8.Qg3 g5
9.Rh5 Qg6 10.Rdh1 (8.042.219.097) 2919

There is a Fail Low with O-O-O at the end again but those are not accurate lines.

Eelco
Hi Eelco.
Thanks for coming to the aid.

It seems that in all variations black is saved by a hair, by the black queen checking either on f3, or g5. Ne7 seems to be a strong move. I only do not quite understand why Stockfish wants to change queens in the 0-0-0 line that I prefer. Let's continue a bit the game. I would suggest white playing 18...Bh6 19.0-0-0 Ne7 20.Rdh1 We do not need those pawns, for the time being the bishop on h6 can not move, the f7 pawn can not move, we will try to exert a bit more pressure...

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Test Position: A line-opening king move

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:53 am

lucasart wrote:
zullil wrote:[D]rn1q1rk1/ppp2pp1/6p1/6b1/2BPp1P1/2P5/P1P2P2/R1BQK2R w KQ - 0 14

After a long search, the latest Stockfish says Ke2. What do other engines think?

See http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 43&t=48416 for more.
DiscoCheck prefers Ba3 here, followed simply by Be7 Bxe7 Qxe7, and Qd2 with OOO in mind...
[pgn]
[FEN "rn1q1rk1/ppp2pp1/6p1/6b1/2BPp1P1/2P5/P1P2P2/R1BQK2R w KQ - 0 14"]

14. Ba3 Be7 15. Bxe7 Qxe7 16. Qd2
[/pgn]

Perhaps not a plan suitable for feint hearted humans, that are afraid of open and complicated positions. But for a computer, that's fine.
Lucas, I hope DiscoCheck does not get offended, but I do not think in this particular situation it has offered optimal moves. I think the line with the exchange of the bishops is easily won for white. Black should play 14...Re8 instead, the black bishop should be able to cover the h file on h6, otherwise I would not trust very much the safety of the black king. :shock:

Thanks for checking the position.

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