Page 7 of 11

Re: Houdini 4 has been released

Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:25 am
by Houdini
jdart wrote:Is there/will there be an opening book for Houdini 4?

--Jon
Not coming from me, I have no particular expertise in openings.
I guess that the partners (ChessBase and ChessOK) will add their opening book of choice with the Houdini 4 bundles with Fritz or Aquarium.

Robert

Re: Houdini 4 has been released

Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:27 am
by Houdini
A Distel wrote:Mogen we een 'ChessBase' versie van 'Houdini 4 (DVD)' verwachten?
ChessBase and ChessOK packages should be available around mid-December.

Cheers,
Robert

Re: Houdini 4 has been released

Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:41 am
by pohl4711
Houdini wrote:
lkaufman wrote: Thanks. Since your methodology seems to be very similar to the LS list, and since LS uses a time limit in between the two you use, can you offer any theory other than sample error for the discrepancy between your +45 figure and LS +27 figure (as last reported, subject to change of course)?
I have no idea.
The time that I wondered about rating list results is long gone :D. One version gets 10 or 15 points too much, the next version gets 10 or 15 points too few... in the long run it more or less evens out.

All the best,
Robert
LS-testrun halftime (5000 of 10000 games): +30 Elo.

Stefan

Re: Houdini 4 has been released

Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:57 am
by leavenfish
If you had to put a value to each rating point gained how would you voice it. For example: 50 pt gain: 20 points via better evaluation, 15 points via better time management and 15 points via endgame tablebases.

I'm just throwing 3 possible criteria around...just chose your own words.

Re: Houdini 4 has been released

Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:11 am
by simon
Houdini wrote:
lkaufman wrote: One more question: When you say that the Syzygy 6 men tb adds five to ten elo, that appears to mean compared to no TB. But shouldn't the proper comparison be with the best TB supported by Houdini 3? Or are you saying that Syzygy is that much better than any other supported TB?
I've never been able to demonstrate any strength improvement with Nalimov EGTB at fast time controls, the overhead of the Nalimov appears to offset any gain. (note that the balance could be different at long TC)
On the other hand, with the Syzygy system the improvement is clear even at 1'+1".

Robert
What advantage do 5 man Syzygy tablebases have over Gaviota tablebases?

Re: Houdini 4 has been released

Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:16 am
by Albert Silver
simon wrote:
Houdini wrote:
lkaufman wrote: One more question: When you say that the Syzygy 6 men tb adds five to ten elo, that appears to mean compared to no TB. But shouldn't the proper comparison be with the best TB supported by Houdini 3? Or are you saying that Syzygy is that much better than any other supported TB?
I've never been able to demonstrate any strength improvement with Nalimov EGTB at fast time controls, the overhead of the Nalimov appears to offset any gain. (note that the balance could be different at long TC)
On the other hand, with the Syzygy system the improvement is clear even at 1'+1".

Robert
What advantage do 5 man Syzygy tablebases have over Gaviota tablebases?
For one thing, they take up less than 1GB as opposed to 6.5GB. I presume that also means they can easily be stored in RAM during searches.

Re: Houdini 4 has been released

Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:01 am
by michiguel
Albert Silver wrote:
simon wrote:
Houdini wrote:
lkaufman wrote: One more question: When you say that the Syzygy 6 men tb adds five to ten elo, that appears to mean compared to no TB. But shouldn't the proper comparison be with the best TB supported by Houdini 3? Or are you saying that Syzygy is that much better than any other supported TB?
I've never been able to demonstrate any strength improvement with Nalimov EGTB at fast time controls, the overhead of the Nalimov appears to offset any gain. (note that the balance could be different at long TC)
On the other hand, with the Syzygy system the improvement is clear even at 1'+1".

Robert
What advantage do 5 man Syzygy tablebases have over Gaviota tablebases?
For one thing, they take up less than 1GB as opposed to 6.5GB. I presume that also means they can easily be stored in RAM during searches.
No, you cannot compare them. One is DTZ50, and the other is DTM. The advantages and disadvantages are mostly related to the type of bases they are. In addition, I think when you say less than 1 GiB you must be referring to the bitbases, not the full information per se. Again, you cannot compare bitbases with full TBs. In that respect, you may want to compare them to Scorpio.

Miguel

Re: Houdini 4 has been released

Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:01 am
by Ryan Benitez
michiguel wrote:
Albert Silver wrote:
simon wrote:
Houdini wrote:
lkaufman wrote: One more question: When you say that the Syzygy 6 men tb adds five to ten elo, that appears to mean compared to no TB. But shouldn't the proper comparison be with the best TB supported by Houdini 3? Or are you saying that Syzygy is that much better than any other supported TB?
I've never been able to demonstrate any strength improvement with Nalimov EGTB at fast time controls, the overhead of the Nalimov appears to offset any gain. (note that the balance could be different at long TC)
On the other hand, with the Syzygy system the improvement is clear even at 1'+1".

Robert
What advantage do 5 man Syzygy tablebases have over Gaviota tablebases?
For one thing, they take up less than 1GB as opposed to 6.5GB. I presume that also means they can easily be stored in RAM during searches.
No, you cannot compare them. One is DTZ50, and the other is DTM. The advantages and disadvantages are mostly related to the type of bases they are. In addition, I think when you say less than 1 GiB you must be referring to the bitbases, not the full information per se. Again, you cannot compare bitbases with full TBs. In that respect, you may want to compare them to Scorpio.

Miguel
But if you compare them to other Bitbase with a claim of higher elo someone might ask for data. I am still waiting for the data to definitively prove that more than WLD is needed.

Re: Houdini 4 has been released

Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:04 am
by Ryan Benitez
Houdini wrote:
A Distel wrote:Mogen we een 'ChessBase' versie van 'Houdini 4 (DVD)' verwachten?
ChessBase and ChessOK packages should be available around mid-December.

Cheers,
Robert
There are some good opening books in the public domain that you could use.

Re: Houdini 4 has been released

Posted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:14 am
by Mike S.
Both types of Syzygy 5-men files together are indeed less than 1 GB:

Code: Select all

N:\Syzygy-345>dir *.rtbw /w
 Datenträger in Laufwerk N: ist TABLEBASES
 Volumeseriennummer: 2E91-4557

 Verzeichnis von N:\Syzygy-345

KBBBvK.rtbw   KBBNvK.rtbw   KBBPvK.rtbw   KBBvK.rtbw    KBBvKB.rtbw
KBBvKN.rtbw   KBBvKP.rtbw   KBBvKQ.rtbw   KBBvKR.rtbw   KBNNvK.rtbw
KBNPvK.rtbw   KBNvK.rtbw    KBNvKB.rtbw   KBNvKN.rtbw   KBNvKP.rtbw
KBNvKQ.rtbw   KBNvKR.rtbw   KBPPvK.rtbw   KBPvK.rtbw    KBPvKB.rtbw
KBPvKN.rtbw   KBPvKP.rtbw   KBPvKQ.rtbw   KBPvKR.rtbw   KBvK.rtbw
KBvKB.rtbw    KBvKN.rtbw    KBvKP.rtbw    KNNNvK.rtbw   KNNPvK.rtbw
KNNvK.rtbw    KNNvKB.rtbw   KNNvKN.rtbw   KNNvKP.rtbw   KNNvKQ.rtbw
KNNvKR.rtbw   KNPPvK.rtbw   KNPvK.rtbw    KNPvKB.rtbw   KNPvKN.rtbw
KNPvKP.rtbw   KNPvKQ.rtbw   KNPvKR.rtbw   KNvK.rtbw     KNvKN.rtbw
KNvKP.rtbw    KPPPvK.rtbw   KPPvK.rtbw    KPPvKB.rtbw   KPPvKN.rtbw
KPPvKP.rtbw   KPPvKQ.rtbw   KPPvKR.rtbw   KPvK.rtbw     KPvKP.rtbw
KQBBvK.rtbw   KQBNvK.rtbw   KQBPvK.rtbw   KQBvK.rtbw    KQBvKB.rtbw
KQBvKN.rtbw   KQBvKP.rtbw   KQBvKQ.rtbw   KQBvKR.rtbw   KQNNvK.rtbw
KQNPvK.rtbw   KQNvK.rtbw    KQNvKB.rtbw   KQNvKN.rtbw   KQNvKP.rtbw
KQNvKQ.rtbw   KQNvKR.rtbw   KQPPvK.rtbw   KQPvK.rtbw    KQPvKB.rtbw
KQPvKN.rtbw   KQPvKP.rtbw   KQPvKQ.rtbw   KQPvKR.rtbw   KQQBvK.rtbw
KQQNvK.rtbw   KQQPvK.rtbw   KQQQvK.rtbw   KQQRvK.rtbw   KQQvK.rtbw
KQQvKB.rtbw   KQQvKN.rtbw   KQQvKP.rtbw   KQQvKQ.rtbw   KQQvKR.rtbw
KQRBvK.rtbw   KQRNvK.rtbw   KQRPvK.rtbw   KQRRvK.rtbw   KQRvK.rtbw
KQRvKB.rtbw   KQRvKN.rtbw   KQRvKP.rtbw   KQRvKQ.rtbw   KQRvKR.rtbw
KQvK.rtbw     KQvKB.rtbw    KQvKN.rtbw    KQvKP.rtbw    KQvKQ.rtbw
KQvKR.rtbw    KRBBvK.rtbw   KRBNvK.rtbw   KRBPvK.rtbw   KRBvK.rtbw
KRBvKB.rtbw   KRBvKN.rtbw   KRBvKP.rtbw   KRBvKQ.rtbw   KRBvKR.rtbw
KRNNvK.rtbw   KRNPvK.rtbw   KRNvK.rtbw    KRNvKB.rtbw   KRNvKN.rtbw
KRNvKP.rtbw   KRNvKQ.rtbw   KRNvKR.rtbw   KRPPvK.rtbw   KRPvK.rtbw
KRPvKB.rtbw   KRPvKN.rtbw   KRPvKP.rtbw   KRPvKQ.rtbw   KRPvKR.rtbw
KRRBvK.rtbw   KRRNvK.rtbw   KRRPvK.rtbw   KRRRvK.rtbw   KRRvK.rtbw
KRRvKB.rtbw   KRRvKN.rtbw   KRRvKP.rtbw   KRRvKQ.rtbw   KRRvKR.rtbw
KRvK.rtbw     KRvKB.rtbw    KRvKN.rtbw    KRvKP.rtbw    KRvKR.rtbw
             145 Datei(en),    396 105 616 Bytes
               0 Verzeichnis(se), 13 689 061 376 Bytes frei

N:\Syzygy-345>dir *.rtbz /w
 Datenträger in Laufwerk N: ist TABLEBASES
 Volumeseriennummer: 2E91-4557

 Verzeichnis von N:\Syzygy-345

KRvKR.rtbz    KBBBvK.rtbz   KBBNvK.rtbz   KBBPvK.rtbz   KBBvK.rtbz
KBBvKB.rtbz   KBBvKN.rtbz   KBBvKP.rtbz   KBBvKQ.rtbz   KBBvKR.rtbz
KBNNvK.rtbz   KBNPvK.rtbz   KBNvK.rtbz    KBNvKB.rtbz   KBNvKN.rtbz
KBNvKP.rtbz   KBNvKQ.rtbz   KBNvKR.rtbz   KBPPvK.rtbz   KBPvK.rtbz
KBPvKB.rtbz   KBPvKN.rtbz   KBPvKP.rtbz   KBPvKQ.rtbz   KBPvKR.rtbz
KBvK.rtbz     KBvKB.rtbz    KBvKN.rtbz    KBvKP.rtbz    KNNNvK.rtbz
KNNPvK.rtbz   KNNvK.rtbz    KNNvKB.rtbz   KNNvKN.rtbz   KNNvKP.rtbz
KNNvKQ.rtbz   KNNvKR.rtbz   KNPPvK.rtbz   KNPvK.rtbz    KNPvKB.rtbz
KNPvKN.rtbz   KNPvKP.rtbz   KNPvKQ.rtbz   KNPvKR.rtbz   KNvK.rtbz
KNvKN.rtbz    KNvKP.rtbz    KPPPvK.rtbz   KPPvK.rtbz    KPPvKB.rtbz
KPPvKN.rtbz   KPPvKP.rtbz   KPPvKQ.rtbz   KPPvKR.rtbz   KPvK.rtbz
KPvKP.rtbz    KQBBvK.rtbz   KQBNvK.rtbz   KQBPvK.rtbz   KQBvK.rtbz
KQBvKB.rtbz   KQBvKN.rtbz   KQBvKP.rtbz   KQBvKQ.rtbz   KQBvKR.rtbz
KQNNvK.rtbz   KQNPvK.rtbz   KQNvK.rtbz    KQNvKB.rtbz   KQNvKN.rtbz
KQNvKP.rtbz   KQNvKQ.rtbz   KQNvKR.rtbz   KQPPvK.rtbz   KQPvK.rtbz
KQPvKB.rtbz   KQPvKN.rtbz   KQPvKP.rtbz   KQPvKQ.rtbz   KQPvKR.rtbz
KQQBvK.rtbz   KQQNvK.rtbz   KQQPvK.rtbz   KQQQvK.rtbz   KQQRvK.rtbz
KQQvK.rtbz    KQQvKB.rtbz   KQQvKN.rtbz   KQQvKP.rtbz   KQQvKQ.rtbz
KQQvKR.rtbz   KQRBvK.rtbz   KQRNvK.rtbz   KQRPvK.rtbz   KQRRvK.rtbz
KQRvK.rtbz    KQRvKB.rtbz   KQRvKN.rtbz   KQRvKP.rtbz   KQRvKQ.rtbz
KQRvKR.rtbz   KQvK.rtbz     KQvKB.rtbz    KQvKN.rtbz    KQvKP.rtbz
KQvKQ.rtbz    KQvKR.rtbz    KRBBvK.rtbz   KRBNvK.rtbz   KRBPvK.rtbz
KRBvK.rtbz    KRBvKB.rtbz   KRBvKN.rtbz   KRBvKP.rtbz   KRBvKQ.rtbz
KRBvKR.rtbz   KRNNvK.rtbz   KRNPvK.rtbz   KRNvK.rtbz    KRNvKB.rtbz
KRNvKN.rtbz   KRNvKP.rtbz   KRNvKQ.rtbz   KRNvKR.rtbz   KRPPvK.rtbz
KRPvK.rtbz    KRPvKB.rtbz   KRPvKN.rtbz   KRPvKP.rtbz   KRPvKQ.rtbz
KRPvKR.rtbz   KRRBvK.rtbz   KRRNvK.rtbz   KRRPvK.rtbz   KRRRvK.rtbz
KRRvK.rtbz    KRRvKB.rtbz   KRRvKN.rtbz   KRRvKP.rtbz   KRRvKQ.rtbz
KRRvKR.rtbz   KRvK.rtbz     KRvKB.rtbz    KRvKN.rtbz    KRvKP.rtbz
             145 Datei(en),    587 852 880 Bytes
               0 Verzeichnis(se), 13 689 061 376 Bytes frei
Total requirement 943 MB on that memory card.