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Re: Did you miss Borislav Ivanov?

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:58 pm
by Graham Banks
Ralph Stoesser wrote:Naked chess in a faraday cage? I don't believe this ever would be acceptable. :) ......
Depends who the players were! There are some nice women chess players around. :wink:

Re: Did you miss Borislav Ivanov?

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:44 pm
by M ANSARI
I can't believe this guy is even allowed to compete anymore ... how unfair to the players that have to face him! Without getting into details, there are many different ways that I can think of that can use off the shelf technology to cheat. The thing is that you can fool some people some times, but you cannot do it all the time. Humans make mistakes, even the top humans like Carlsen and Anand and Kramnik! Those mistakes or blunders are usually tactical, an area where engines far exceed the abilities of humans. But engines also make mistakes that are positional or they can shuffle pieces. This guy Ivanov is not even cheating in a sophisticated way because his system does not give him a choice of choosing a more human move from a set of choices. He is playing exactly the move that is being transmitted to him even when the position is totally won. He is easy to identify ... the problem will be when someone finds a way to look at the top say 5 moves of an engine or several engines, and then add to that the abilities and chess knowledge of even an average GM, and you have a chess player that would make mince meat of any human chess player that has ever played the game. This is a challenge that competitive professional chess will have to figure a way to overcome.

It would be interesting if we had a sticky and each person would post his way to circumvent all existing systems and cheat using an engine without being caught. I think it will be eye raising what many of the very technically adept posters here would come up with. Maybe this information could then be used to circumvent tournament cheating.

I would start with this. You have a second person within view that is the one receiving the moves. This person is getting moves from a strong chess player with a powerful engine running 5 pv's and then choosing when possible the most human move, even if it is not the strongest. The relay of moves would use a system where you use a to h and 1 to 8. This way the player would never have anything on him and still be able to receive moves. How would you do it?

Re: Did you miss Borislav Ivanov?

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:51 pm
by Ralph Stoesser
Graham Banks wrote:
Ralph Stoesser wrote:Naked chess in a faraday cage? I don't believe this ever would be acceptable. :) ......
Depends who the players were! There are some nice women chess players around. :wink:
Can you post pics please? We could save human chess competition. :wink:

Re: Did you miss Borislav Ivanov?

Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:57 am
by Graham Banks
Ralph Stoesser wrote:
Graham Banks wrote:
Ralph Stoesser wrote:Naked chess in a faraday cage? I don't believe this ever would be acceptable. :) ......
Depends who the players were! There are some nice women chess players around. :wink:
Can you post pics please? We could save human chess competition. :wink:
:lol:

Re: Did you miss Borislav Ivanov?

Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:43 am
by Terry McCracken
M ANSARI wrote:I can't believe this guy is even allowed to compete anymore ... how unfair to the players that have to face him! Without getting into details, there are many different ways that I can think of that can use off the shelf technology to cheat. The thing is that you can fool some people some times, but you cannot do it all the time. Humans make mistakes, even the top humans like Carlsen and Anand and Kramnik! Those mistakes or blunders are usually tactical, an area where engines far exceed the abilities of humans. But engines also make mistakes that are positional or they can shuffle pieces. This guy Ivanov is not even cheating in a sophisticated way because his system does not give him a choice of choosing a more human move from a set of choices. He is playing exactly the move that is being transmitted to him even when the position is totally won. He is easy to identify ... the problem will be when someone finds a way to look at the top say 5 moves of an engine or several engines, and then add to that the abilities and chess knowledge of even an average GM, and you have a chess player that would make mince meat of any human chess player that has ever played the game. This is a challenge that competitive professional chess will have to figure a way to overcome.

It would be interesting if we had a sticky and each person would post his way to circumvent all existing systems and cheat using an engine without being caught. I think it will be eye raising what many of the very technically adept posters here would come up with. Maybe this information could then be used to circumvent tournament cheating.

I would start with this. You have a second person within view that is the one receiving the moves. This person is getting moves from a strong chess player with a powerful engine running 5 pv's and then choosing when possible the most human move, even if it is not the strongest. The relay of moves would use a system where you use a to h and 1 to 8. This way the player would never have anything on him and still be able to receive moves. How would you do it?
It is sad...

Re: Did you miss Borislav Ivanov?

Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:28 am
by Dr.Wael Deeb
Graham Banks wrote:
Ralph Stoesser wrote:Naked chess in a faraday cage? I don't believe this ever would be acceptable. :) ......
Depends who the players were! There are some nice women chess players around. :wink:
You bad bad boy Graham :wink:

Re: Did you miss Borislav Ivanov?

Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:39 am
by Uri Blass
Henk wrote:Playing 90% of the moves of a chess engine is quite easy and I'm just an amateur. Maybe if you practice a lot that percentage can be much higher.

I also see people playing duplicate (winning) games, against different opponents.

So I am not totally convinced. By the way I don't know much about his games.
I am convinced that he is a cheater only by the fact that he is very unstable in his results.

Here is another example for his results

http://ratings.fide.com/individual_calc ... -12-01&t=0

losing against a player with 2106 and drawing against 2 players with rating below 1900 is not what I expect from a player who can beat 2 GM's in the next month

It is not his only bad tournament see for example

http://ratings.fide.com/individual_calc ... -03-01&t=0

In an earlier tournament he beat 4 GM's in a row

http://ratings.fide.com/individual_calc ... -01-01&t=0

I think that his results without looking in games may be a reason to decide that he is cheating.

His results by themselves do not prove cheating to improve his result and they may be explained by losing on purpose some games but even if a player lose part of his games on purpose and does not cheat by computer then I think that this is a good reason to ban him and as an extreme example if you see a player lose by 1.f3 e5 2.g4 Qh4 mate in significant number of games then I think that it is a reason to ban him.

Re: Did you miss Borislav Ivanov?

Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:42 am
by Matthias Gemuh
I sometimes crush people on PlayChess server as if I am wearing Borislav's shoes.

Re: Did you miss Borislav Ivanov?

Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:38 am
by Henk
Uri Blass wrote: I am convinced that he is a cheater only by the fact that he is very unstable in his results.
If someone is ill or not feeling well but still able to play chess his rating may drop.

Re: Did you miss Borislav Ivanov?

Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:31 pm
by Uri Blass
Henk wrote:
Uri Blass wrote: I am convinced that he is a cheater only by the fact that he is very unstable in his results.
If someone is ill or not feeling well but still able to play chess his rating may drop.
If the player is very ill then usually he does not appear to the game and if he slightly ill then the drop is not more than 200 elo so I expect a player who beat GM's in one tournament not to draw against players with rating below 1900 and lose against players with rating 2100 in another tournament
and what I saw with Ivanov is not one tournament with strange bad results and there is more than one based on checking the fide statistics.