Movei, The Baron, and TSCP

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Uri Blass
Posts: 8530
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Movei, The Baron, and TSCP

Post by Uri Blass » Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:28 pm

Sedat Canbaz wrote:I published SCCT Scratch Rating (a few minutes ago):
http://www.sedatcanbaz.com/chess/?page_id=634

Note that so far approx. 2700 games are already played
And the scratch engine database includes 113 games lost on time
That means in every 100 games, there is possibility to see 3-4 games forfeits on time (the number is not too big, honestly I expected much more...)
Those games which are lost on time are mainly belong to Djinn v1.008 (39 games), without those lost games on time, probably Djinn would be in Top 20

Since today, I started testing only the Top 20 scratch engines

Soon I will test a few scratch engines more (Jazz,Milady,Neurone...)

Games and more info coming soon!

Have fun,
Sedat
I see that the baron is included in the scratch engines.
Note that I read that the baron started from tscp.

http://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/TSCP

Note that I started from some code from tscp but not from some working code(For example the code that I started did not include something of the evaluation function of tscp) so it is not the same for movei.

I do not claim that the version of baron that you test is similiar to tscp
but it may be interesting to know results by the similiarity tool.

Sedat Canbaz
Posts: 3018
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:58 am
Location: Antalya/Turkey
Contact:

Re: Which are the chess engines written from scratch ?

Post by Sedat Canbaz » Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:24 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
Sedat Canbaz wrote:I published SCCT Scratch Rating (a few minutes ago):
http://www.sedatcanbaz.com/chess/?page_id=634

Note that so far approx. 2700 games are already played
And the scratch engine database includes 113 games lost on time
That means in every 100 games, there is possibility to see 3-4 games forfeits on time (the number is not too big, honestly I expected much more...)
Those games which are lost on time are mainly belong to Djinn v1.008 (39 games), without those lost games on time, probably Djinn would be in Top 20

Since today, I started testing only the Top 20 scratch engines

Soon I will test a few scratch engines more (Jazz,Milady,Neurone...)

Games and more info coming soon!

Have fun,
Sedat
I see that the baron is included in the scratch engines.
Note that I read that the baron started from tscp.

http://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/TSCP

Note that I started from some code from tscp but not from some working code(For example the code that I started did not include something of the evaluation function of tscp) so it is not the same for movei.

I do not claim that the version of baron that you test is similiar to tscp
but it may be interesting to know results by the similiarity tool.
Dear Uri,

Thanks...

Right now I am going to pause Baron in my Scratch testing

And if this is true...be sure sure I will remove Baron and his games from SCCT Scratch Rating


Best,
Sedat

Sedat Canbaz
Posts: 3018
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:58 am
Location: Antalya/Turkey
Contact:

Re: Which are the chess engines written from scratch ?

Post by Sedat Canbaz » Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:25 pm

Unfortunately both engines (Milady and Neurone) did not wok on my machines

Really I am not sure why... even after installing Framework 3.5, Neorone did not start to play

Christopher Conkie
Posts: 6068
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 7:34 pm
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: Which are the chess engines written from scratch ?

Post by Christopher Conkie » Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:50 am

Sedat Canbaz wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
Sedat Canbaz wrote:I published SCCT Scratch Rating (a few minutes ago):
http://www.sedatcanbaz.com/chess/?page_id=634

Note that so far approx. 2700 games are already played
And the scratch engine database includes 113 games lost on time
That means in every 100 games, there is possibility to see 3-4 games forfeits on time (the number is not too big, honestly I expected much more...)
Those games which are lost on time are mainly belong to Djinn v1.008 (39 games), without those lost games on time, probably Djinn would be in Top 20

Since today, I started testing only the Top 20 scratch engines

Soon I will test a few scratch engines more (Jazz,Milady,Neurone...)

Games and more info coming soon!

Have fun,
Sedat
I see that the baron is included in the scratch engines.
Note that I read that the baron started from tscp.

http://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/TSCP

Note that I started from some code from tscp but not from some working code(For example the code that I started did not include something of the evaluation function of tscp) so it is not the same for movei.

I do not claim that the version of baron that you test is similiar to tscp
but it may be interesting to know results by the similiarity tool.
Dear Uri,

Thanks...

Right now I am going to pause Baron in my Scratch testing

And if this is true...be sure sure I will remove Baron and his games from SCCT Scratch Rating


Best,
Sedat
There are many many engines that started from TSCP. It was the basic starting point of learning (myself included). Provided that is known,permission and declaration was asked for and made there has never been any problem. The difference between Baron (first) and Baron (now) is like trying to compare a white man to a black man. I find it insulting that one should think otherwise.

That said I can help you with a rule Sedat.

When we looked at engines what we did was we disregarded all engines below 2300 elo. We did this because (provided relevant permission was asked) everyone must start somewhere. If you look at many of the major engines you will find that their origins are indeed from other things. A good example of this (and I know he will agree) is Gian Carlo Pascutto who started with Faile when he created a first engine.

However, to say that Sjeng is Faile now is completely laughable and in fact untrue. It just isnt.

So I am saying to you that we look(ed) at sudden jumps in elo (yes we still look) for those engines that were not open source.

An elo barrier is good in the initial filter consideration you should make, just like Olivier Deville and Patrick Buchmann do/did before entry was allowed.

If there is no suspicion you should include.

If you want our (and we are legion) opinion, you can ask.

I would only like to say that it is good your enthusiasm is not dulled and that it is always good to see new ideas competing against other new ideas.

It is not good to see (even tremendously boring) Ippolitvanoe completing against Houdunnitdontknow.

Good luck. It seems like real authors will like this a lot. More power to you.

:)

Chris

Macumba

Re: Which are the chess engines written from scratch ?

Post by Macumba » Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:03 am

Uri Blass wrote:
Sedat Canbaz wrote:I published SCCT Scratch Rating (a few minutes ago):
http://www.sedatcanbaz.com/chess/?page_id=634

Note that so far approx. 2700 games are already played
And the scratch engine database includes 113 games lost on time
That means in every 100 games, there is possibility to see 3-4 games forfeits on time (the number is not too big, honestly I expected much more...)
Those games which are lost on time are mainly belong to Djinn v1.008 (39 games), without those lost games on time, probably Djinn would be in Top 20

Since today, I started testing only the Top 20 scratch engines

Soon I will test a few scratch engines more (Jazz,Milady,Neurone...)

Games and more info coming soon!

Have fun,
Sedat
I see that the baron is included in the scratch engines.
Note that I read that the baron started from tscp.

http://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/TSCP

Note that I started from some code from tscp but not from some working code(For example the code that I started did not include something of the evaluation function of tscp) so it is not the same for movei.

I do not claim that the version of baron that you test is similiar to tscp
but it may be interesting to know results by the similiarity tool.

Baron is completely original. I suppose this kind of affirmation remembers me about your fantastic move 1. h3!!.

Any real chess programmer, who knows Richard Pijl, not you of course, can affirm without any doubt that new Baron was created from scratch. Your Movei is derived from TSCP because you said it openly here.

I find it so silly, that I suppose Richard will pass this. My goodness, the things that I have to read here!
Last edited by Macumba on Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Macumba

Re: Which are the chess engines written from scratch ?

Post by Macumba » Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:09 am

Sedat Canbaz wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
Sedat Canbaz wrote:I published SCCT Scratch Rating (a few minutes ago):
http://www.sedatcanbaz.com/chess/?page_id=634

Note that so far approx. 2700 games are already played
And the scratch engine database includes 113 games lost on time
That means in every 100 games, there is possibility to see 3-4 games forfeits on time (the number is not too big, honestly I expected much more...)
Those games which are lost on time are mainly belong to Djinn v1.008 (39 games), without those lost games on time, probably Djinn would be in Top 20

Since today, I started testing only the Top 20 scratch engines

Soon I will test a few scratch engines more (Jazz,Milady,Neurone...)

Games and more info coming soon!

Have fun,
Sedat
I see that the baron is included in the scratch engines.
Note that I read that the baron started from tscp.

http://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/TSCP

Note that I started from some code from tscp but not from some working code(For example the code that I started did not include something of the evaluation function of tscp) so it is not the same for movei.

I do not claim that the version of baron that you test is similiar to tscp
but it may be interesting to know results by the similiarity tool.
Dear Uri,

Thanks...

Right now I am going to pause Baron in my Scratch testing

And if this is true...be sure sure I will remove Baron and his games from SCCT Scratch Rating


Best,
Sedat
I would pass Uri Blass statements... Ask any author, who knows about chess programming and you will get a convincing and forceful answer about Blass' hallucinations. Baron is an original engine... Movei, instead, was derived from TSCP…

Christopher Conkie
Posts: 6068
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 7:34 pm
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: Which are the chess engines written from scratch ?

Post by Christopher Conkie » Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:09 am

Macumba wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
Sedat Canbaz wrote:I published SCCT Scratch Rating (a few minutes ago):
http://www.sedatcanbaz.com/chess/?page_id=634

Note that so far approx. 2700 games are already played
And the scratch engine database includes 113 games lost on time
That means in every 100 games, there is possibility to see 3-4 games forfeits on time (the number is not too big, honestly I expected much more...)
Those games which are lost on time are mainly belong to Djinn v1.008 (39 games), without those lost games on time, probably Djinn would be in Top 20

Since today, I started testing only the Top 20 scratch engines

Soon I will test a few scratch engines more (Jazz,Milady,Neurone...)

Games and more info coming soon!

Have fun,
Sedat
I see that the baron is included in the scratch engines.
Note that I read that the baron started from tscp.

http://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/TSCP

Note that I started from some code from tscp but not from some working code(For example the code that I started did not include something of the evaluation function of tscp) so it is not the same for movei.

I do not claim that the version of baron that you test is similiar to tscp
but it may be interesting to know results by the similiarity tool.

Baron is completely original. I suppose this kind of affirmation remembers me about your fantastic move 1. h3!!.

Any real chess programmer, who knows Richard Pijl, not you of course, can affirm without any doubt that new Baron was created from scratch. Your Movei is a derivative from TSCP because you said it openly here.

I find it so silly, that I suppose Richard will pass this. My goodness, the things that I have to read here!
Absolutely 100% correct. Good to see you Arturo btw. Hope you are well.

:)

Regards

Chris

carldaman
Posts: 1687
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Which are the chess engines written from scratch ?

Post by carldaman » Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:42 am

Macumba wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
Sedat Canbaz wrote:I published SCCT Scratch Rating (a few minutes ago):
http://www.sedatcanbaz.com/chess/?page_id=634

Note that so far approx. 2700 games are already played
And the scratch engine database includes 113 games lost on time
That means in every 100 games, there is possibility to see 3-4 games forfeits on time (the number is not too big, honestly I expected much more...)
Those games which are lost on time are mainly belong to Djinn v1.008 (39 games), without those lost games on time, probably Djinn would be in Top 20

Since today, I started testing only the Top 20 scratch engines

Soon I will test a few scratch engines more (Jazz,Milady,Neurone...)

Games and more info coming soon!

Have fun,
Sedat
I see that the baron is included in the scratch engines.
Note that I read that the baron started from tscp.

http://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/TSCP

Note that I started from some code from tscp but not from some working code(For example the code that I started did not include something of the evaluation function of tscp) so it is not the same for movei.

I do not claim that the version of baron that you test is similiar to tscp
but it may be interesting to know results by the similiarity tool.

Baron is completely original. I suppose this kind of affirmation remembers me about your fantastic move 1. h3!!.

Any real chess programmer, who knows Richard Pijl, not you of course, can affirm without any doubt that new Baron was created from scratch. Your Movei is derived from TSCP because you said it openly here.

I find it so silly, that I suppose Richard will pass this. My goodness, the things that I have to read here!
I mentioned The Baron to Sedat because I thought it was original. I was referring primarily to the publicly available Baron. I'd be very surprised if it wasn't original. To be honest, I find it frustrating that there is so much controversy and doubt surrounding virtually every single engine. :?
:(

Regards,
CL

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michiguel
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:30 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois, USA
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Re: Which are the chess engines written from scratch ?

Post by michiguel » Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:20 am

Macumba wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
Sedat Canbaz wrote:I published SCCT Scratch Rating (a few minutes ago):
http://www.sedatcanbaz.com/chess/?page_id=634

Note that so far approx. 2700 games are already played
And the scratch engine database includes 113 games lost on time
That means in every 100 games, there is possibility to see 3-4 games forfeits on time (the number is not too big, honestly I expected much more...)
Those games which are lost on time are mainly belong to Djinn v1.008 (39 games), without those lost games on time, probably Djinn would be in Top 20

Since today, I started testing only the Top 20 scratch engines

Soon I will test a few scratch engines more (Jazz,Milady,Neurone...)

Games and more info coming soon!

Have fun,
Sedat
I see that the baron is included in the scratch engines.
Note that I read that the baron started from tscp.

http://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/TSCP

Note that I started from some code from tscp but not from some working code(For example the code that I started did not include something of the evaluation function of tscp) so it is not the same for movei.

I do not claim that the version of baron that you test is similiar to tscp
but it may be interesting to know results by the similiarity tool.

Baron is completely original. I suppose this kind of affirmation remembers me about your fantastic move 1. h3!!.

Any real chess programmer, who knows Richard Pijl, not you of course, can affirm without any doubt that new Baron was created from scratch. Your Movei is derived from TSCP because you said it openly here.

I find it so silly, that I suppose Richard will pass this. My goodness, the things that I have to read here!
There is absolutely no reason to attack Uri. He is just providing a link to the chess programming wiki. In that page, it says nothing wrong about The Baron, in fact, it mentions it was a LEGAL derivative. In addition, it seems to be correct. It would be rare to see something crazy wrong there (Gerd seems to be quite thorough) so I googled.
Richard himself acknowledged TSCP for the initial old Baron (which was completely rewritten IIRC)
http://docs3.chomikuj.pl/2278220280,PL,0,0,readme.txt

A C K N O W L E D G E M E N T S
-------------------------------
I used ideas already implemented in other chess programs when writing my own chess
engine. The starting point was one of the smallest chess programs around: Tom's Simple
Chess Program version 1.73.
I would like to thank Tom Kerrigan for making the source of the program available.
Although all of Tom's original code has gone now, it gave me the opportunity
to quickly build a working program.


Current Baron must have zero lines from TSCP and there nothing wrong with it. Quoting Anthony Cozzie (googled from the winboard forum)

" If someone wants to create an engine with Glaurung as a base, I don't see why that is a problem, as long as they specifically note this on its webpage/credits/whatever. I know The Baron originally started out as TSCP; no one thinks any less of Richard for doing this. "
http://www.open-aurec.com/wbforum/viewt ... TSCP#p3535

Having said that, Sedat has a criteria for his own tournament. He is not placing guilt or an ethical concerns, if I understand well. If he were, it would be a complete different story. As an example, he may not include Crafty because it is a continuation of Cray Blitz. He is not saying Bob is cloning himself. Some people have tournaments based on the language spoken by the author, the country, or whatever. Sedat may not include some engine if at one point a template was used, regardless of legitimacy.

These are topics in which people get really touchy, I understand that and the reasons for it, but in this thread nobody accused anybody of anything. I hope this won't turn into anything that would start offending people.

Miguel

Uri Blass
Posts: 8530
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: Which are the chess engines written from scratch ?

Post by Uri Blass » Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:46 am

Macumba wrote:
Uri Blass wrote:
Sedat Canbaz wrote:I published SCCT Scratch Rating (a few minutes ago):
http://www.sedatcanbaz.com/chess/?page_id=634

Note that so far approx. 2700 games are already played
And the scratch engine database includes 113 games lost on time
That means in every 100 games, there is possibility to see 3-4 games forfeits on time (the number is not too big, honestly I expected much more...)
Those games which are lost on time are mainly belong to Djinn v1.008 (39 games), without those lost games on time, probably Djinn would be in Top 20

Since today, I started testing only the Top 20 scratch engines

Soon I will test a few scratch engines more (Jazz,Milady,Neurone...)

Games and more info coming soon!

Have fun,
Sedat
I see that the baron is included in the scratch engines.
Note that I read that the baron started from tscp.

http://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/TSCP

Note that I started from some code from tscp but not from some working code(For example the code that I started did not include something of the evaluation function of tscp) so it is not the same for movei.

I do not claim that the version of baron that you test is similiar to tscp
but it may be interesting to know results by the similiarity tool.

Baron is completely original. I suppose this kind of affirmation remembers me about your fantastic move 1. h3!!.

Any real chess programmer, who knows Richard Pijl, not you of course, can affirm without any doubt that new Baron was created from scratch. Your Movei is derived from TSCP because you said it openly here.

I find it so silly, that I suppose Richard will pass this. My goodness, the things that I have to read here!
Note that
I did not say that the new baron include something from tscp but only that baron started from tscp.

From the page that miguel gave:
"Although all of Tom's original code has gone now, it gave me the opportunity to quickly build a working program."

I admit openly that I started from some code of tscp that did not include evaluation function or move generator that it is clearly less than what Richard admitted.

You distort my words when you say that I admit openly that movei is a tscp derivative.

If we define chess code as code that is relevant only for chess and not for other games then
I think that there was never chess code that is common for movei and tscp(unless you consider some names of variables to be chess code).

The common pv array that movei use and also tscp use is not a chess code because it can be used also for other games and I do not consider the way that I store moves to be chess code(originally by struct like tscp and later I replaced it by integer)

I guess that when richard said that all of Tom's original code has gone now he meant only to chess code and I doubt that he replaced every line to see that there is no common lines between the baron and tscp.

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