World Chess Computer Champion?

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mwyoung
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by mwyoung » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:30 pm

Modern Times wrote:Komodo is far more of a World Champion than Hiarcs. When Hiarcs gains 150 Elo then it can compete at the top. What I see here is a Hiarcs fan disillusioned that his favourite engine has been surpassed.
Your straw man tactics always seem to find a new low, since you can not argue against facts. Hiarcs has nothing to do with Komodo self proclaiming itself a world champion, or Martin who has never claimed his tournament is a WCCC event.

This is about Komodo self proclaiming itself a World Champion, because it won a TCEC tournament.

I have been on CCC since it opened many years ago. And everyone that has read my post knows what my favorite program is and it is not Hiarcs.

My favorite program has always been the strongest chess engine.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
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mwyoung
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by mwyoung » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:59 pm

lucasart wrote:
mwyoung wrote:I am not sure how this has evolved. That at chess program can self proclaim itself with World Championship Status.

http://komodochess.com/

From the Komodo site.

"2013 World Chess Engine Champion!"

What is strange about the Komodo claim and as far as I know. TCEC has never claimed itself with any kind of World Computer Chess Champion Status.

We have a WCCC history and a 2013 World Computer Champion and it is not Komodo.

http://icga.uvt.nl/wp-uploads/conferenc ... 202013.pdf

From ICGA
Final
standing 2013:

1. and World Champion Software Hiarcs.

Under Komodo's logic of claiming World Championship Status. Houdini 4 could also claim itself to be the World Computer Chess Engine Champion, because like TCEC. CCRL also is a rating list and performs tournaments to rate chess programs. And Right now Houdini 4 is the best chess engine on the CCRL list. And CCRL plays more programs and plays far more games then TCEC.
ICGA world championship is a farce. Everybody knows that. Yet Hiarcs puts on its website that it's the world champion, because it won the WCCC organized by ICGA.

The closest thing there is to a WCCC today is TCEC. So Komodo's claim is not unreasonable.

Anyway, all this is just marketing. The most reliable (and independant) measure of engine's strength are rating lists, like CEGT or CCRL.
That is correct. It is about marketing. And one program is correct in claiming it holds the wccc title and that would be Hiarcs. And one program is lying about being the world champion. And that would be Komodo so it can decieve the public for more money.

If Komodo wants to claim the wccc title. Komodo needs to play and win that fide and icga official title. And stop lying about holding that official title.
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by bhlangonijr » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:03 pm

mwyoung wrote:
Modern Times wrote:
mwyoung wrote: It is a shame that you keep claiming TCEC is a organization. TCEC is a guy with a computer. No disrespect but that is the facts.
I think that is deeply disrespectful of Martin. Do you have to be an "Organisation" to have any credibility ?
Again a straw man. Let call it what it is. TCEC is not a organization, it is one guy running a personal chess tournament . It is not any kind of organization. TCEC is not affiliated with FIDE or the ICGA. It is not a WCCC event. That is the facts.

What is disrespectful is what Komodo has done, and what Komodo is doing to TCEC.

By making such claims that TCEC is a WCCC event, Martin is not even making that claim. But Komodo is making that claim, because Komodo won a TCEC tournament.
Anyone can run a world computer chess championship. As long as they don't call it official, it's just fine. ICGA is the official organization "entitled" for running such tournament. No question.
TCEC is a sort of popular (non official) world computer chess championship in which by the way we have participating in many of the strongest chess engines around the world. This is widely accepted by computer chess community, even without Martin acknowledging it as such.
Komodo is, in fact, champion of a world computer chess championship - be it official or not. Calling themselves "Word Computer Chess Champions" is totally fine as long as they don't prefix it with "Official". There are many examples like this one over the history, including with chess. Remember PCA and the "Classical World Chess Championship"?

BTW, I think it is rather disrespectful calling Komodo team members liars.

So there is no case here. If it is just a ranting go on, but you are basically going nowhere with this, other than piling a thread with ranting. If you are still not happy with their alleged status, go and look for an attorney. So you can go after Komodo team over the legal consequences - if at all.

mwyoung
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by mwyoung » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:16 pm

bhlangonijr wrote:
mwyoung wrote:
Modern Times wrote:
mwyoung wrote: It is a shame that you keep claiming TCEC is a organization. TCEC is a guy with a computer. No disrespect but that is the facts.
I think that is deeply disrespectful of Martin. Do you have to be an "Organisation" to have any credibility ?
Again a straw man. Let call it what it is. TCEC is not a organization, it is one guy running a personal chess tournament . It is not any kind of organization. TCEC is not affiliated with FIDE or the ICGA. It is not a WCCC event. That is the facts.

What is disrespectful is what Komodo has done, and what Komodo is doing to TCEC.

By making such claims that TCEC is a WCCC event, Martin is not even making that claim. But Komodo is making that claim, because Komodo won a TCEC tournament.
Anyone can run a world computer chess championship. As long as they don't call it official, it's just fine. ICGA is the official organization "entitled" for running such tournament. No question.
TCEC is a sort of popular (non official) world computer chess championship in which by the way we have participating in many of the strongest chess engines around the world. This is widely accepted by computer chess community, even without Martin acknowledging it as such.
Komodo is, in fact, champion of a world computer chess championship - be it official or not. Calling themselves "Word Computer Chess Champions" is totally fine as long as they don't prefix it with "Official". There are many examples like this one over the history, including with chess. Remember PCA and the "Classical World Chess Championship"?

BTW, I think it is rather disrespectful calling Komodo team members liars.

So there is no case here. If it is just a ranting go on, but you are basically going nowhere with this, other than piling a thread with ranting. If you are still not happy with their alleged status, go and look for an attorney. So you can go after Komodo team over the legal consequences - if at all.
Then why do others also disagree....
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reflectionofpower
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by reflectionofpower » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:17 pm

Modern Times wrote:
mwyoung wrote: Maybe we should all run a WCCC event and crown our own champion. All you need is a computer tournament, and the claim that the event is for the World Computer Chess Championship.
That is correct, anyone can do that. The ICGA does not have exclusive rights to the words "World Champion".
ICGA has done a minimal job to promote a comfortable scene for computer chess programs and playing arrangements.
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by bhlangonijr » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:28 pm

mwyoung wrote:
Then why do others also disagree....
Maybe they are bored? Don't have anything better to do? There are people that just like picking flame wars... Go figure!

mwyoung
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by mwyoung » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:46 pm

bhlangonijr wrote:
mwyoung wrote:
Then why do others also disagree....
Maybe they are bored? Don't have anything better to do? There are people that just like picking flame wars... Go figure!
Or maybe others also don't like it when chess engine producers lie about official titles they have no right in claiming to deceive people into buying their products. Maybe they feel that is what is disrespectful.
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bhlangonijr
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by bhlangonijr » Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:05 pm

mwyoung wrote: Or maybe others also don't like it when chess engine producers lie about official titles they have no right in claiming to deceive people into buying their products. Maybe they feel that is what is disrespectful.
Oh my.... Read it again:
2013 World Chess Engine Champion!
Don, we won! We won! Komodo outright won the TCEC tournament ahead of the world's strongest programs, including: Houdini, Stockfish and Rybka.
They are not claiming official title, whatsoever. And by the way they do not use the words WCCC title. You are nitpicking.

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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by ouachita » Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:06 pm

http://komodochess.com/:

2013 World Chess Engine Champion!
Don, we won! We won! Komodo outright won the TCEC tournament ahead of the world's strongest programs, including: Houdini, Stockfish and Rybka.

On the one hand, he says, "2013 World Chess Engine Champion!" On the other, he points out that, " . . . Komodo outright won the TCEC tournament . . . ". I have no objection to his stated position.

Think of it as being much like boxing: If you're the champ of either I.B.F., W.B.A., W.B.C., and/or W.B.O., you can claim being world champion. Except here, there is no official sanctioning body.

It's all fun. No one makes any money or gets hurt.
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by IanO » Sun Feb 16, 2014 5:23 pm

This thread is so ironic. Have we all forgotten our history? That the ICCA itself had separate tournaments for chess computer manufacturers, for the sole purpose of giving them shiny World Champion stickers to put on their boxes? The WC title is all about marketing and has been since the first person put down their cash to own an artificial chess player.

Komodo's claim simply continues a long tradition of product marketing. In my opinion, it happens to be the first legit "World Champion" claim since Rybka was kicked out of the WCCC (since Houdini and Stockfish never show up).

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