World Chess Computer Champion?

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IGarcia
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by IGarcia » Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:45 pm

hgm wrote:
Modern Times wrote:Any organisation can run a World Championship, and the winner can claim that title. The ICGA is one example.
Actually this is almost universally not true. The way it works in real life is that people who engage in a certain competative activity organize themselves into an official representative body, and delegate the right to organize a World Championship exclusively to that body.

So yes, I could jump on my bicycle, ride a few laps around the block, and then call myself "World Champion cycling". (Or "God of the Wheels", or whatever. There are no limits to how I could call myself.)

But I would be lying. Everyone would know that, and at best would think I was a pompous idiot.

Only one organization can award the title World Championship cycling, and that is the UCI. Because cyclist have agreed that the UCI is their representative body.

In Chess the globally representative body is FIDE. For a Chess title to be more than just a 'Mickey-Mouse title' it must be endorsed by FIDE. The largest (if not the only) organization of Chess-program authors is ICGA, and it is associated with FIDE. So they have the monopoly of awarding World-Championship titles in computer Chess.

The Komodo people are simply lying, for obvious commercial benefits.

Those are the facts. It is rather disappointing that the Komodo team resorts to such cheap methods for financial gain. If they think they deserve the title, the honorable way would be to compete for it. If I were the organizer of TCEC, I would consider this claim sufficient reason to ban Komodo from further participation, as they are obviously abusing the privilage of having been allowed to participate.
Your arguments are correct, but continuing with your bicycle example... lets say you invite top 10 or 20 best riders of the planet and instead of a "few laps around the block" you make a fair competition with a challenge circuit and unbiased rules where all have chances to win. The winner of such event will fill as the best. It will be a "world champion" besides its official or not.

As opposite, lets say the "official organization" makes a competition with few competitors, few laps. The winner will be acclaimed the "official WCCC", still people will know something is rotten in Amsterdam ( :wink: ). And the winner will know he really is not the best.

So its a lot of talk on what IS a world champion, what it means, what it really is, etc...

More easy will be to call competitions based on FIDE event category, as in human tournaments. This is hard to define in computer chess because Elo scales are relative.

Still we can judge the quality of the tournament by the participant list, the rules, amount of games, etc.. and conclude if "for us" the winner deserves to be designed a world champion.

nTCEC clear is one of the best tournaments to filter a WCCC. Witch does not means is the top engine. (same as with humans before Carlsen title).

Regards,
Ignacio.

Adam Hair
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by Adam Hair » Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:55 pm

IGarcia wrote:
hgm wrote:
Modern Times wrote:Any organisation can run a World Championship, and the winner can claim that title. The ICGA is one example.
Actually this is almost universally not true. The way it works in real life is that people who engage in a certain competative activity organize themselves into an official representative body, and delegate the right to organize a World Championship exclusively to that body.

So yes, I could jump on my bicycle, ride a few laps around the block, and then call myself "World Champion cycling". (Or "God of the Wheels", or whatever. There are no limits to how I could call myself.)

But I would be lying. Everyone would know that, and at best would think I was a pompous idiot.

Only one organization can award the title World Championship cycling, and that is the UCI. Because cyclist have agreed that the UCI is their representative body.

In Chess the globally representative body is FIDE. For a Chess title to be more than just a 'Mickey-Mouse title' it must be endorsed by FIDE. The largest (if not the only) organization of Chess-program authors is ICGA, and it is associated with FIDE. So they have the monopoly of awarding World-Championship titles in computer Chess.

The Komodo people are simply lying, for obvious commercial benefits.

Those are the facts. It is rather disappointing that the Komodo team resorts to such cheap methods for financial gain. If they think they deserve the title, the honorable way would be to compete for it. If I were the organizer of TCEC, I would consider this claim sufficient reason to ban Komodo from further participation, as they are obviously abusing the privilage of having been allowed to participate.
Your arguments are correct, but continuing with your bicycle example... lets say you invite top 10 or 20 best riders of the planet and instead of a "few laps around the block" you make a fair competition with a challenge circuit and unbiased rules where all have chances to win. The winner of such event will fill as the best. It will be a "world champion" besides its official or not.
There is sort of a precedent in the sports world. Though the British Open, the US Open, and the PGA Championship are all run by their governing bodies (the R&A, the USGA, and the PGA) and are the official championships of those organizations, arguably the Masters (which is run by a private golf club) is the most prestigious tournament for golfers. It is also more selective in whom it invites to compete.

Andre
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by Andre » Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:10 pm

And I would add that in American Football and Baseball, which are national events, the season winner is called "World Champion".

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hgm
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by hgm » Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:55 pm

IGarcia wrote:Your arguments are correct, but continuing with your bicycle example... lets say you invite top 10 or 20 best riders of the planet and instead of a "few laps around the block" you make a fair competition with a challenge circuit and unbiased rules where all have chances to win.
You mean sort of like the Tour de France? :roll:
Andre wrote:And I would add that in American Football and Baseball, which are national events, the season winner is called "World Champion".
I don't think that is correct. For baseball, at least. There it is not called "World Championship", but "World Series". Which is equally ridiculous, of course. I guess they call it such because Canada also participates, and Americans tend to be a little myopic.

Actually last time I checked the Netherlands was World Champion basebal (for national teams, which is of course a different competition than that for club teams.)
Adam Hair wrote:There is sort of a precedent in the sports world. Though the British Open, the US Open, and the PGA Championship are all run by their governing bodies (the R&A, the USGA, and the PGA) and are the official championships of those organizations, arguably the Masters (which is run by a private golf club) is the most prestigious tournament for golfers. It is also more selective in whom it invites to compete.
I never made any statements about what is more prestigious or not. To stick with the cycling example, it seems pretty obvious that the Tour de France is a far more prestigious event that the World Championship.

The point is that no one calls the Tour de France the World Championship, and no winner of the Tour de France ever proclaimed himself World Champion.

I am not much into Golf, but I don't think that the winner of the Masters calls himself World Champion Golf. He is 'just' winner of the Masters. So I don't think this is a precedent at all.

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hgm
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by hgm » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:12 pm

bhlangonijr wrote:BTW, I think it is rather disrespectful calling Komodo team members liars.
That is OK. I don't respect liars... :P

syzygy
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by syzygy » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:20 pm

Modern Times wrote:
mwyoung wrote: It is a shame that you keep claiming TCEC is a organization. TCEC is a guy with a computer. No disrespect but that is the facts.
I think that is deeply disrespectful of Martin. Do you have to be an "Organisation" to have any credibility ?
Did Martin ever intend that the winner of his competition calls himself "World Champion" based on this victory?

A world champion is the winner of a tournament called "World Championship". TCEC is not called "World Championship".

Another issue is whether it would be legitimate for Martin to rename his tournament into "World Championship". As far as we know he is not going to do that, so the question is not all too relevant. But I think there is something to say for HGM's position that a World Championship should be organised by a body that has some claim to being representative.

Regarding the situation in boxing, the same situation has obviously existed in chess: FIDE versus PCA. Multiple organisations, each claiming to be representative and each of these claims having at least some merit. I don't know the politics of boxing, but I imagine it is less than exemplary.

Komodo is the current TCEC champion.

ouachita
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by ouachita » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:27 pm

syzygy wrote:. . . politics . . . less than exemplary . . . .
of course the politics of chess has often been and may still be less than exemplary; Boxing is much better now than say 50 years ago
SIM, PhD, MBA, PE

Gerd Isenberg
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by Gerd Isenberg » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:34 pm

hgm wrote:
Modern Times wrote:Any organisation can run a World Championship, and the winner can claim that title. The ICGA is one example.
Actually this is almost universally not true. The way it works in real life is that people who engage in a certain competative activity organize themselves into an official representative body, and delegate the right to organize a World Championship exclusively to that body.

So yes, I could jump on my bicycle, ride a few laps around the block, and then call myself "World Champion cycling". (Or "God of the Wheels", or whatever. There are no limits to how I could call myself.)

But I would be lying. Everyone would know that, and at best would think I was a pompous idiot.

Only one organization can award the title World Championship cycling, and that is the UCI. Because cyclist have agreed that the UCI is their representative body.

In Chess the globally representative body is FIDE. For a Chess title to be more than just a 'Mickey-Mouse title' it must be endorsed by FIDE. The largest (if not the only) organization of Chess-program authors is ICGA, and it is associated with FIDE. So they have the monopoly of awarding World-Championship titles in computer Chess.

The Komodo people are simply lying, for obvious commercial benefits.

Those are the facts. It is rather disappointing that the Komodo team resorts to such cheap methods for financial gain. If they think they deserve the title, the honorable way would be to compete for it. If I were the organizer of TCEC, I would consider this claim sufficient reason to ban Komodo from further participation, as they are obviously abusing the privilage of having been allowed to participate.
I agree with you. While "2013 World Chess Engine Champion" is not the exact wording of "World Computer Chess Champion", as "owned" by the ICGA, the suggestion is obvious. I'll hope our ICGA programmers representative, fellow programmer, and Komodo team member Mark Lefler talks turkey with the Komodo marketing division to change the wording to "Winner of TCEC Season 5" or "Winner of nTCEC Season 2". Also they need to update their links.

mwyoung
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by mwyoung » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:36 pm

The only problem with Komodo claiming it is the

"2013 World Chess Engine Champion!"

Is that it is not true. Komodo holds no such TITLE. Komodo is the world champion of nothing. It is a bold face lie. You know it, I know it, and Komodo knows it.

So then others must argue no one owns "World Champion"...but it is still a lie to deceive the public.

So then other must argue Komodo is in the top 3 engine program and would be a deserving champion...but it is still a lie to deceive the public.

So then other must argue it is just marketing...but it is still a lie to deceive the public.

So then other must argue they don't care, and have no problem with it...but it is still a lie to deceive the public.

So then other must argue Komodo can make up any title it wants as long as Komodo does not use the words "OFFICIAL"... but it is still a lie to deceive the public.

Komodo can do what every it wants, but it is going to get called out on it when the intent is to lie to deceive people for money.

And I am not ok with that tactic, even if others are. So I will speak out against this kind of marketing.

This is one of the reason why I continue to test chess computers and started testing chess computers. Because back in the 1980's this type of marketing lie was common place.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Take on me. foes 0

mwyoung
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by mwyoung » Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:03 pm

syzygy wrote:
Modern Times wrote:
mwyoung wrote: It is a shame that you keep claiming TCEC is a organization. TCEC is a guy with a computer. No disrespect but that is the facts.
I think that is deeply disrespectful of Martin. Do you have to be an "Organisation" to have any credibility ?
Did Martin ever intend that the winner of his competition calls himself "World Champion" based on this victory?

A world champion is the winner of a tournament called "World Championship". TCEC is not called "World Championship".

Another issue is whether it would be legitimate for Martin to rename his tournament into "World Championship". As far as we know he is not going to do that, so the question is not all too relevant. But I think there is something to say for HGM's position that a World Championship should be organised by a body that has some claim to being representative.

Regarding the situation in boxing, the same situation has obviously existed in chess: FIDE versus PCA. Multiple organisations, each claiming to be representative and each of these claims having at least some merit. I don't know the politics of boxing, but I imagine it is less than exemplary.

Komodo is the current TCEC champion.
The answer to your question is no, TCEC has never claimed anything in regards to his tournament being a world champion event.

To be clear here. Martin and TCEC have done nothing wrong. Komodo won TCEC in 2013. Then claimed on their own that Komodo was now a World Champion Engine for 2013.

Martin and TCEC have never made any claim that his tournament was for any kind of World Championship Title.

This was all a fabrication by Komodo.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Take on me. foes 0

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