World Chess Computer Champion?

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ouachita
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by ouachita » Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:36 am

The solution is obvious: All LK has to do is edit the text and case slightly, perhaps by simply moving the same words around a bit:

Komodo won the 2013 TCEC tournament chess engine tournament ahead of all of the world's strongest programs, including Houdini, Stockfish and Rybka. Komodo is now regarded by the majority of engine experts and thousands of customers as the 2013 world chess engine champion!
SIM, PhD, MBA, PE

bhlangonijr
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by bhlangonijr » Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:07 am

ouachita wrote:The solution is obvious: All LK has to do is edit the text and case slightly, perhaps by simply moving the same words around a bit:

Komodo won the 2013 TCEC tournament chess engine tournament ahead of all of the world's strongest programs, including Houdini, Stockfish and Rybka. Komodo is now regarded by the majority of engine experts as the 2013 world chess engine champion!
Funny, if you go to wiki page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Comp ... ampionship

In the section "World Chess Software Championship" you get the follow:
More recently, the Thoresen Chess Engines Competition[6] has filled this role. Chess engine programs compete on common hardware through a series of qualifying rounds followed by a "superfinal". The last completed TCEC championship was won by Komodo. The previous TCEC championship was won by Houdini.
Not that it makes any difference, but funny it is mentioned in the world computer chess championship wiki page. :)

ouachita
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by ouachita » Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:12 am

Funny, if you go to wiki page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Comp ... ampionship

In the section "World Chess Software Championship" you get the follow:
More recently, the Thoresen Chess Engines Competition[6] has filled this role.
That's as official as it gets today.
SIM, PhD, MBA, PE

mwyoung
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by mwyoung » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:13 am

Rebel wrote:
mwyoung wrote:
Rebel wrote:
mwyoung wrote:Komodo does not have a right to self proclaim itself with World Championship Status, because you or Komodo do not like how the ICGA runs its World Championship Events.
The "World Title" is vacant.

If you willfully kill rule number one in computer chess (strength) you lose the right.

In the end it's the public who decides.
If Komodo wants to claim the world championship title Ed. They need to play for that Title and win it.
If you are the organizer of a prestigious event, and the world championship is such an event, then you (as organizer) have the moral obligation to invest energy to attract the strongest players. If your (out-dated) rules prevent the strongest field possible then you no longer deserve the right to call your event a world championship.
Look Ed, There was no rule that keep Komodo from playing in the WCCC event. And The Title is not Vacant. And Komodo is not the World Champion.

Here is question, If You and Komodo distain the title so much. Then why Lie about having won the WCCC event.

Komodo could have just shown up and won if the field is that weak, but you do have to show up. You do have to play by the rules, and because you don't like the rules. You don't get to claim the title of world champion because you won one tournament, run by one guy, with no oversight of any kind.

That is also how you don't run a legitimate world championship event. Get real Ed.

And please don't say or use the words moral obligation in our conversation again. I don't think you understand what that means, if you can justify a out right lie by Komodo...
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
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mwyoung
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by mwyoung » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:36 am

ouachita wrote:The solution is obvious: All LK has to do is edit the text and case slightly, perhaps by simply moving the same words around a bit:

Komodo won the 2013 TCEC tournament chess engine tournament ahead of all of the world's strongest programs, including Houdini, Stockfish and Rybka. Komodo is now regarded by the majority of engine experts and thousands of customers as the 2013 world chess engine champion!
unofficial world champion, as that is a opinion, not a Title. Then that would work.

And I have never been polled asking if I think Komodo is any kind of World Champion, or anyone else.

Did Komodo run a survey and got a majority of engine experts and customers to agree it is the 2013 World chess engine champion.

I guess my survey letter was lost in the mail...
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
take on me. Foes 0.

mwyoung
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by mwyoung » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:54 am

bhlangonijr wrote:
ouachita wrote:The solution is obvious: All LK has to do is edit the text and case slightly, perhaps by simply moving the same words around a bit:

Komodo won the 2013 TCEC tournament chess engine tournament ahead of all of the world's strongest programs, including Houdini, Stockfish and Rybka. Komodo is now regarded by the majority of engine experts as the 2013 world chess engine champion!
Funny, if you go to wiki page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Comp ... ampionship

In the section "World Chess Software Championship" you get the follow:
More recently, the Thoresen Chess Engines Competition[6] has filled this role. Chess engine programs compete on common hardware through a series of qualifying rounds followed by a "superfinal". The last completed TCEC championship was won by Komodo. The previous TCEC championship was won by Houdini.
Not that it makes any difference, but funny it is mentioned in the world computer chess championship wiki page. :)
It is not funny at all or strange, it is the wiki page. Do you not know how the wiki pages work.

"Wikipedia is written collaboratively by largely anonymous Internet volunteers who write without pay. Anyone with Internet access can write and make changes to Wikipedia articles, except in limited cases where editing is restricted to prevent disruption or vandalism. Users can contribute anonymously, under a pseudonym, or, if they choose to, with their real identity."

So I will fix the article so you will not find it funny anymore... :roll:
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
take on me. Foes 0.

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M ANSARI
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by M ANSARI » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:13 am

mwyoung wrote:
Modern Times wrote:
M ANSARI wrote:A lot of people think that the TCEC was actually the "real" WCC ... and why not. The setup was pretty impressive and the hardware even more so. You had a qualification stage, then another stage with only the top engines ... then another stage where the top two placers went toe to toe against each other. I cannot think of any other tournament that is as comprehensive with that much time per game and that type of powerful hardware and with so many games as to reduce the factor of luck. I think they can claim the WCC title without having their fingers crossed behind their backs. Komodo won it fair and square!
Yes, totally agree.
I have to say I do find you attitude in this matter disappointing. As a computer chess tester yourself. Who's goal for posting I hope is to provide accurate information about all chess engines to the public. And his own rating list CCRL shows that Komodo TCEC is ranked behind two other programs. Would sanction such a misleading claim as Komodo's claim as being a World Champion Engine.

When all Komodo has done to make such a self proclamation is to win one tournament TCEC, run by one individual, with no oversight by any organization. And the person running TCEC does not even claim his personal tournament is meant to be a World Championship Event for computer chess engines.

That is very misleading to the public as "World Champion" has a meaning for them. As a person who's goal should be to give accurate and unbias analysis of every chess engine by running a public rating list. All I can say is I thought better of you.

Let me put it this way, the ICGA claim that the WCC is Hiarcs is so silly that I will not even comment on that. Sure you can claim that the ICGA is the "official" declarer of WCC and that they can decide who wins by disqualifying whoever they want and for whatever reason they want. The TCEC was setup in a way that people like you and me and most posters on this site ... people who test engines, who understands engines ... without idiotic politics or biased rules ... a setup which was decided by posters on computer chess forums. The number of games, the qualifying stages, the time control, the hardware used ... the TCEC is simply by far the most comprehensive test of the strongest engine on earth. Nothing else even comes close!

Now if you ask me whether I think that Komodo is the strongest engine on earth ... well my answer would be a very definite NO ... and certainly not at all time controls! Maybe even not the second strongest but a close third. The strongest or best don't always win the World Championships, if that was the case Brazil would have 10 World Cup titles by now. But it is more about who performs best at that time at that place at that competition. Komodo qualified the first stage easily, qualified the second stage convincingly and in the final managed to beat SF in a nail biter. Most likely it was a little unfair that SF had to suffer divine intervention, but hey life is like that sometimes :). Komodo most certainly deserves the title of World Chess Champion of 2013 ... it is the least that they can claim after a great accomplishment.

mwyoung
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by mwyoung » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:56 am

M ANSARI wrote:
mwyoung wrote:
Modern Times wrote:
M ANSARI wrote:A lot of people think that the TCEC was actually the "real" WCC ... and why not. The setup was pretty impressive and the hardware even more so. You had a qualification stage, then another stage with only the top engines ... then another stage where the top two placers went toe to toe against each other. I cannot think of any other tournament that is as comprehensive with that much time per game and that type of powerful hardware and with so many games as to reduce the factor of luck. I think they can claim the WCC title without having their fingers crossed behind their backs. Komodo won it fair and square!
Yes, totally agree.
I have to say I do find you attitude in this matter disappointing. As a computer chess tester yourself. Who's goal for posting I hope is to provide accurate information about all chess engines to the public. And his own rating list CCRL shows that Komodo TCEC is ranked behind two other programs. Would sanction such a misleading claim as Komodo's claim as being a World Champion Engine.

When all Komodo has done to make such a self proclamation is to win one tournament TCEC, run by one individual, with no oversight by any organization. And the person running TCEC does not even claim his personal tournament is meant to be a World Championship Event for computer chess engines.

That is very misleading to the public as "World Champion" has a meaning for them. As a person who's goal should be to give accurate and unbias analysis of every chess engine by running a public rating list. All I can say is I thought better of you.

Let me put it this way, the ICGA claim that the WCC is Hiarcs is so silly that I will not even comment on that. Sure you can claim that the ICGA is the "official" declarer of WCC and that they can decide who wins by disqualifying whoever they want and for whatever reason they want. The TCEC was setup in a way that people like you and me and most posters on this site ... people who test engines, who understands engines ... without idiotic politics or biased rules ... a setup which was decided by posters on computer chess forums. The number of games, the qualifying stages, the time control, the hardware used ... the TCEC is simply by far the most comprehensive test of the strongest engine on earth. Nothing else even comes close!

Now if you ask me whether I think that Komodo is the strongest engine on earth ... well my answer would be a very definite NO ... and certainly not at all time controls! Maybe even not the second strongest but a close third. The strongest or best don't always win the World Championships, if that was the case Brazil would have 10 World Cup titles by now. But it is more about who performs best at that time at that place at that competition. Komodo qualified the first stage easily, qualified the second stage convincingly and in the final managed to beat SF in a nail biter. Most likely it was a little unfair that SF had to suffer divine intervention, but hey life is like that sometimes :). Komodo most certainly deserves the title of World Chess Champion of 2013 ... it is the least that they can claim after a great accomplishment.
Komodo may be deserving to be a world champion. But the problem with your argument is it is not the world champion. And Komodo by self proclaiming this title is lying.

The proof that your argument is pure bs. Is that you can not even get TCEC to agree with you that Komodo is any kind of world champion.
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Modern Times
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by Modern Times » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:16 am

M ANSARI wrote: The strongest or best don't always win the World Championships, if that was the case Brazil would have 10 World Cup titles by now. But it is more about who performs best at that time at that place at that competition.
Agreed. But critically, in order to be worthy of the title "World Championship" most of the leading contenders should be participating. That is what makes the ICGA World Championship totally worthless, and what makes the TCEC winner a worthy World Champion. The ICGA championship is just an event where a small number of programmers turn up to play. It no longer deserves to be called a World Championship. It is a good event to have, and they should continue with it, but drop the World Championship tag as that is terribly misleading.

mwyoung
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by mwyoung » Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:45 am

Modern Times wrote:
M ANSARI wrote: The strongest or best don't always win the World Championships, if that was the case Brazil would have 10 World Cup titles by now. But it is more about who performs best at that time at that place at that competition.
Agreed. But critically, in order to be worthy of the title "World Championship" most of the leading contenders should be participating. That is what makes the ICGA World Championship totally worthless, and what makes the TCEC winner a worthy World Champion. The ICGA championship is just an event where a small number of programmers turn up to play. It no longer deserves to be called a World Championship. It is a good event to have, and they should continue with it, but drop the World Championship tag as that is terribly misleading.
If you don't want to mislead people then why do you support Komodo's lie

What oversight was there in the tcec tournament to ensure that everthing is fair to all the computer players. The answer is none, it was run by one person on his personal computer.

And you want to argue that tcec was for the world championship title.

But again tcec never did claim komodo was a world champion of anything, or claim it was running a wccc event for a world title. So no oversight was needed of tcec.

The laughable thing is this is how you want to run a wccc event, all I can say is you have nothing on the ICGA. :roll:
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
take on me. Foes 0.

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