World Chess Computer Champion?

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Sedat Canbaz
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by Sedat Canbaz » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:03 pm

Winner of the 2013 TCEC tournament!
http://komodochess.com/

+1

Yes...right now I noticed that Komodo web site reported the true

syzygy
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by syzygy » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:14 pm

Laskos wrote:Champion
1. One that wins first place or first prize in a competition.
2. One that is clearly superior or has the attributes of a winner


I think the second definition is mostly insinuated to by the marketers.
Note that the second meaning of "champion" has nothing to do with competing in competitions. Before the text was changed, the Komodo website clearly suggested that Komodo had won a world championship.

As I wrote earlier, Komodo is the current TCEC champion.

Modern Times
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by Modern Times » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:18 pm

The way the Komodo team have been bullied into changing their website is yet another shameful episode in computer chess. They had every right to proclaim themselves as World Champions. That was not misleading.

What is misleading is the ICGA World Championship, where the winners splatter their websites (quite legitimately) with news of their victory, and some poor suckers think they are buying the market leading engines, when they are barely top ten these days. It isn't the ICGA's fault, they can't force people to participate, but they should recognize the fact that they are no longer attracting the quality of applicants worthy of the name "world championship", and change the title of their event accordingly.

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Laskos
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by Laskos » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:24 pm

syzygy wrote:
Laskos wrote:Champion
1. One that wins first place or first prize in a competition.
2. One that is clearly superior or has the attributes of a winner


I think the second definition is mostly insinuated to by the marketers.
Note that the second meaning of "champion" has nothing to do with competing in competitions. Before the text was changed, the Komodo website clearly suggested that Komodo had won a world championship.

As I wrote earlier, Komodo is the current TCEC champion.
Nevertheless, the general public (with helpful insinuations) mingles these two definitions. One buys not for an obscure title pompously named, but for being superior. Also, one assumes that winning the first place is not finding out who is the luckiest. Or who has the least abilities in that discipline.
Last edited by Laskos on Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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michiguel
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by michiguel » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:37 pm

Modern Times wrote:The way the Komodo team have been bullied into changing their website is yet another shameful episode in computer chess. They had every right to proclaim themselves as World Champions. That was not misleading.

What is misleading is the ICGA World Championship, where the winners splatter their websites (quite legitimately) with news of their victory, and some poor suckers think they are buying the market leading engines, when they are barely top ten these days. It isn't the ICGA's fault, they can't force people to participate, but they should recognize the fact that they are no longer attracting the quality of applicants worthy of the name "world championship", and change the title of their event accordingly.
At minimum, I would say that is totally unfair to question the integrity of the Komodo team as some did K. team may not have been accurate, but from the first minute it was clear what they won in the website. Someone complained, and they changed it. That is it.

All this semantic chit chat is getting in the way of a how great Komodo's achievement was (with a race against the clock and all the drama). Call it whatever you want, I myself would not call it World Champ, but K is the current TOP DOG until the end of current TCEC.

Miguel

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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by hgm » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:40 pm

Laskos wrote:Well, TCEC has a resolving power of ~30 points. And sure you are being silly here, because establishing the strongest is the _goal_ of a World Championship, that a WC doesn't have the resolving power to do that is a negative feature of that competition. In games of humans this is often the case because of the limited human resources.
This is where you are wrong. That is the goal of a rating list. The goal of a WC is to promote competition by offering a juicy title the winner can carry for one year, with all the benefits it brings. As others here affirmed. Determining the absolute best no matter how minute the difference is just an obsession of you. You are quite alone in this.

If two participants are so close in abilities that for all intents and purposes they can be considered equal, one does not go to an infinite number of legs / games / sets / matches whatever to try and resolve that difference. That would be boaring. That is why in Tennis we have tie breaks, in Soccer we have penalty shootouts, in Volleyball we have ralleyport system, etc.

Because rating lists for Chess program versions have nowadays such an insanely high number of games, people think that differences of just a few Elo still have any meaning. While in fact they are of course dominated by systematic error, due to the small variety of opponents. It is totally useless trying to resolve small Elo differences by having the same two programs play ad nauseam against each other. This will not make the probability that the best wins any larger. Because you cannot determine who is best by playing just against a single opponent.

Modern Times
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by Modern Times » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:42 pm

michiguel wrote: All this semantic chit chat is getting in the way of a how great Komodo's achievement was (with a race against the clock and all the drama)..
Miguel
No argument on that.

syzygy
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by syzygy » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:47 pm

Laskos wrote:
syzygy wrote:
Laskos wrote:Champion
1. One that wins first place or first prize in a competition.
2. One that is clearly superior or has the attributes of a winner


I think the second definition is mostly insinuated to by the marketers.
Note that the second meaning of "champion" has nothing to do with competing in competitions. Before the text was changed, the Komodo website clearly suggested that Komodo had won a world championship.

As I wrote earlier, Komodo is the current TCEC champion.
Nevertheless, the general public (with helpful insinuations) mingles these two definitions. One buys not for an obscure title pompously named, but for being superior. Also, one assumes that winning the first place is not finding out who is the luckiest. Or who has the least abilities in that discipline.
What is the point? That commercial motives may have been a reason to write "world champion" instead of "TCEC champion"?

IGarcia
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by IGarcia » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:47 pm

Modern Times wrote:The way the Komodo team have been bullied into changing their website is yet another shameful episode in computer chess. They had every right to proclaim themselves as World Champions. That was not misleading.
Yes it was a shame, as when someone corrects you a typo and misses the message content.

Still it was incorrect the WCCC thing, the changes made show greatness of the Komodo team to reckon a mistake and correct it.

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michiguel
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by michiguel » Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:50 pm

Laskos wrote:
syzygy wrote:
Laskos wrote:Champion
1. One that wins first place or first prize in a competition.
2. One that is clearly superior or has the attributes of a winner


I think the second definition is mostly insinuated to by the marketers.
Note that the second meaning of "champion" has nothing to do with competing in competitions. Before the text was changed, the Komodo website clearly suggested that Komodo had won a world championship.

As I wrote earlier, Komodo is the current TCEC champion.
Nevertheless, the general public (with helpful insinuations) mingles these two definitions. One buys not for an obscure title pompously named, but for being superior.
Sorry about digressing a bit...

#2 is the original and the more faithful to the true meaning, if we are going to be picky. Champion (campeon in Spanish, which is closer to Latin) is a truly nice word with a rich and epic history. In fact, to be faithful to the original meaning, a championship is not a tournament to select a champion, but a tournaments in which champions participate (i.e. a tournament with worthy opponents). Champion comes from campus (campo in spanish) = field, as in battle field, or training field. A champion is a leader, a fighter who fights face to face with dignity, a gladiator. That is why you phrases in English like "To champion an idea", that is, to fight, to support a worthy cause. I like the origin of words because they come with a much richer comprehension of how to use them. I just checked and apparently the concept #1 is very modern, from XIX century. People still use #2 a lot.

Miguel

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