World Chess Computer Champion?

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sicilianquake87
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by sicilianquake87 » Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:19 am

The strongest engine has the right to claim that title. :roll:
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hgm
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by hgm » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:07 am

Rebel wrote:Last, regarding the subject line, if you know the story of Don and how hard he fought against his incurable disease looking in the face of death using his energy (or what was left) programming Komodo as a delay for the inevitable and then winning the hardest competition just before he died then I am perfectly okay with the sentiment of those who are left behind. It's a tribute to one of the best programmers. Let them.
The problem here seems to be that some of the people that have an axe to grind with ICGA seem so obsessed by this, that they have abandoned all moral restraints. Anything that would hurt ICGA, or those Chess-program authors that abided by its rules, is good and must be defended. No matter how criminal, morally corrupt, or disgusting it might be.

Mentioning Don's ilness in this context is an affront. I am sure that Don would never have agreed to such tactics to promote Komodo. It is in fact an insult to his memory.

Fact is that Komodo could have easily grabbed the official title. Unlike Houdini, Komodo is above any suspicion as far as the originality requirement is concerned. There is no excuse for them not having entered, other than to save some money. Other commencial engines did spend that money. The whole issue has nothing to do with prestige, it is just a sneaky way to save a few hundred bucks. Komodo tries to usurp the title for the commercial benefits, without having payed the price.

I don't see how this is different from common theft...

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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by Martin Thoresen » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:12 am

mwyoung wrote: The answer is none, it was run by one person on his personal computer.
I have deliberately refrained from commenting on this - until now. By reading through this thread, you seem very focused on the "one man, one computer" idea. Why does this matter? Does it make it less "valuable" if there's only 1 person behind the event, than say 100?

For what it's worth, TCEC as of today really consists of several key people. Jeremy B, Paolo C, Myself, my sister (she runs the Facebook page) and of course opening book experts Nelson H. and Adam H. I have a good partnership with Chessdom who writes articles and promotes the event and I have a good relationship with virtually every active engine programmer today.

I spend almost all my free time on TCEC - I do have a full time job, probably like everyone else in here.

My point is this, while this "one man, one computer" idea might have been spot on a few years ago, I would not say that this is the case today.

And as a last thing, you are right that I never claim TCEC to be any "official" world championship. So whether Komodo is right or wrong that's not up to me to decide, but I take pride in the fact that they regard TCEC in such a way.

Best,
Martin

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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by hgm » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:29 am

bhlangonijr wrote:
ouachita wrote:The solution is obvious: All LK has to do is edit the text and case slightly, perhaps by simply moving the same words around a bit:

Komodo won the 2013 TCEC tournament chess engine tournament ahead of all of the world's strongest programs, including Houdini, Stockfish and Rybka. Komodo is now regarded by the majority of engine experts as the 2013 world chess engine champion!
Funny, if you go to wiki page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Comp ... ampionship

In the section "World Chess Software Championship" you get the follow:
More recently, the Thoresen Chess Engines Competition[6] has filled this role. Chess engine programs compete on common hardware through a series of qualifying rounds followed by a "superfinal". The last completed TCEC championship was won by Komodo. The previous TCEC championship was won by Houdini.
Not that it makes any difference, but funny it is mentioned in the world computer chess championship wiki page. :)
Indeed, this seems a bit out of place, as well as inaccurate. I corrected it to
Due to the requirement to be present on-site, and strict rules of originality, many strong programs refrain from participating in the ICGA events. As the conditions of the software championship can easily be emulated by anyone with a high-end PC, there are now privately conducted tournaments that have much broader attendence, as well as a larger number of games to reduce the influence of luck. Especially Thoresen Chess Engines Competition[6] is more prestigious than the WCSC.
It seems a bit ridiculous to discuss TCEC rules and winners on the WCCC page. TCEC should have its own wikipedia page, where that information can be presented.

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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by hgm » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:38 am

Martin Thoresen wrote:I have deliberately refrained from commenting on this - until now. By reading through this thread, you seem very focused on the "one man, one computer" idea. Why does this matter? Does it make it less "valuable" if there's only 1 person behind the event, than say 100?
What matters for a World Championship is whether you have endorsement by the community to call it such.

Unlike what some people claim here, it is not a good thing if just any person or group of outsiders (i.e. non-participants) can organize a tourney and call it a World Championship. It would in fact be a total idiocy to allow that, because it would totally devaluate the title World Champion, to no one's advantage.

This thread is not criticising TCEC, which is a great initiative.

And you are wrong about one thing: It is up to you to decide whether you want to proclaim TCEC the World Championship. And thus implicitly whether the Komodo claim is right or wrong.

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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by mwyoung » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:19 am

Martin Thoresen wrote:
mwyoung wrote: The answer is none, it was run by one person on his personal computer.
I have deliberately refrained from commenting on this - until now. By reading through this thread, you seem very focused on the "one man, one computer" idea. Why does this matter? Does it make it less "valuable" if there's only 1 person behind the event, than say 100?

For what it's worth, TCEC as of today really consists of several key people. Jeremy B, Paolo C, Myself, my sister (she runs the Facebook page) and of course opening book experts Nelson H. and Adam H. I have a good partnership with Chessdom who writes articles and promotes the event and I have a good relationship with virtually every active engine programmer today.

I spend almost all my free time on TCEC - I do have a full time job, probably like everyone else in here.

My point is this, while this "one man, one computer" idea might have been spot on a few years ago, I would not say that this is the case today.

And as a last thing, you are right that I never claim TCEC to be any "official" world championship. So whether Komodo is right or wrong that's not up to me to decide, but I take pride in the fact that they regard TCEC in such a way.

Best,
Martin
Martin this issue is not about you or TCEC. It is not my concern how you run your tournaments. Unless you were claiming you are awarding world championship titles, and you are clearly not. I like your tournaments and watch and enjoy them.

The issue about one person running a tournament on his computer is fine with me.

But you clearly can not have a WCCC event run this way. As some would suggest, and claim it to be for the WCCC title. A person running such a tournament with no oversight or affiliation lacks all credibility.

By Komodo self proclaiming a WCCC title in such a way, when TCEC makes no such claim of awarding a WCCC title is a problem for Komodo not TCEC.

Under Komodo's logic of self proclaiming a world title, any program can claim the WCCC title by self proclaiming it won any tournament posted on CCC, or by other rating list results.

It lacks all credibility, and it is a lie to deceive the chess buying public in the hopes of making more money off their products.

This is what Komodo has done in the name of TCEC, it is up to you if you condone such action by taking no action. But that is not my concern how you run your tournament. I wish you continued success, you run a good event, and you promote it well.

As a computer chess fan and tester. I thank you.
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by Martin Thoresen » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:33 am

hgm wrote:What matters for a World Championship is whether you have endorsement by the community to call it such.

Unlike what some people claim here, it is not a good thing if just any person or group of outsiders (i.e. non-participants) can organize a tourney and call it a World Championship. It would in fact be a total idiocy to allow that, because it would totally devaluate the title World Champion, to no one's advantage.

This thread is not criticising TCEC, which is a great initiative.

And you are wrong about one thing: It is up to you to decide whether you want to proclaim TCEC the World Championship. And thus implicitly whether the Komodo claim is right or wrong.
I definitely get your point. To be honest, I was not really thinking much about Komodo using the the title of "2013 World Chess Engine Champion!".

I am in a way glad that you people know that I am not promoting TCEC as the "unofficial world computer championship". I also told Chessdom to rephrase the intros of their articles, because at some point they used this exact phrase.

In any way, Both Larry and Mark are present at this forum so I guess it's a matter of time before they read it. I will not force them to change that text.

Best,
Martin

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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by Martin Thoresen » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:42 am

mwyoung wrote: Martin this issue is not about you or TCEC. It is not my concern how you run your tournaments. Unless you were claiming you are awarding world championship titles, and you are clearly not. I like your tournaments and watch and enjoy them.

The issue about one person running a tournament on his computer is fine with me.

But you clearly can not have a WCCC event run this way. As some would suggest, and claim it to be for the WCCC title. A person running such a tournament with no oversight or affiliation lacks all credibility.

By Komodo self proclaiming a WCCC title in such a way, when TCEC makes no such claim of awarding a WCCC title is a problem for Komodo not TCEC.

Under Komodo's logic of self proclaiming a world title, any program can claim the WCCC title by self proclaiming it won any tournament posted on CCC, or by other rating list results.

It lacks all credibility, and it is a lie to deceive the chess buying public in the hopes of making more money off their products.

This is what Komodo has done in the name of TCEC, it is up to you if you condone such action by taking no action. But that is not my concern how you run your tournament. I wish you continued success, you run a good event, and you promote it well.

As a computer chess fan and tester. I thank you.
No worries, I did not see any of your comments as an "attack" on me or TCEC but rather as a "questionable text on the Komodo website".

What the Komodo website basically tell a visitor is that that they won what they think is the world computer chess championship. And in this way, the visitors that do not know better might think that TCEC is indeed the "Software WCCC". Which is, at this point, not correct, if one is to follow titles blindly.

It seems to me that you recognize the ICGA title of "world computer chess champion" as the "de facto" title today, even when most people dismiss the ICGA entirely. I will not get into that "Is the ICGA relevant today" discussion here, but to me this is a valid point of view of which you are entitled to have and I respect that.

Best,
Martin

Modern Times
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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by Modern Times » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:42 am

mwyoung wrote: The laughable thing is this is how you want to run a wccc event, all I can say is you have nothing on the ICGA. :roll:
I have no interest whatsoever in running any type of WCCC event. :roll:

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Re: World Chess Computer Champion?

Post by Modern Times » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:44 am

hgm wrote:What matters for a World Championship is whether you have endorsement by the community to call it such.
Yes - and I think the community does endorse TCEC as a World Championship.

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