What engine is World computer chess champion?

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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What engine do You consider as WCCC?

The winner of ICGA
22
24%
The winner of TCEC
40
43%
The Engine at top rating lists (CCRL or other)
23
25%
Other
8
9%
 
Total votes: 93

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hgm
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Re: What engine is World computer chess champion?

Post by hgm » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:08 pm

Indeed. And bickering about who is the 'real' champion out of a number of possibilities all much less than ideal is not going to help anything in solving a bad situation.

It would be much more productive to investigate why so many programmers are deterred from participating in a tournament as soon as it is called a 'World Championship'. And what can be done to relief that problem.

Just recruiting programs for participation can be an effective method, as TCEC shows.

Dr. Axel Schumacher
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Re: Undisputed WCCC-Champion 2014

Post by Dr. Axel Schumacher » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:14 pm

fern wrote:It is fortunate that at last we coincide in something. Yes, my gran grand father had that liaison with that lady and the result was a line that in its final branch landed in you, so we are cousins of a sort, fact that is additionally proved by the fact that my father lin is too plenty of drunkards, as i am myself.
Wit that in mind, this morning I called back my Serbians which were already on the way to kill you as a liar and slandering kind of guy.
So i advice to forget all this about Moron and your pitiable engine and share a wine or two one of these days.
I already had a German mathematician in my home, years ago, so I can tolerate another German guy any day.

Moron CEO
Fern
Be careful Fern, in case I make it to Chile some day (and I would love to visit there and in case the asylum lets me out), I will remind you....
Cheers,
Axel

P.S. Keep the wine at the right temperature.
"A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five".
Groucho Marx

Ralph Stoesser
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Re: What engine is World computer chess champion?

Post by Ralph Stoesser » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:16 pm

hgm wrote:Yes, and you can dream that it actually is a World Championship Chess! :idea:
To answer Bob's question "Is a 10-participant WCCC _really_ a "WCCC" event???". No it is not. Meanwhile the REAL event is TCEC, because ICGA was too slow in doing the right things. Now it is too late and you could kindly ask the ICGA to change the name of their tournament to WCCCU11. Things would be much clearer then. :lol:

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hgm
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Re: What engine is World computer chess champion?

Post by hgm » Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:22 pm

Yes, you could dream about that too. :lol:

But dreaming about what others could do won't alter the world...

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M ANSARI
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Re: What engine is World computer chess champion?

Post by M ANSARI » Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:36 pm

hgm wrote:Yes, and you can dream that it actually is a World Championship Chess! :idea:

And why wouldn't it actually be the World Championship of Chess engines? It includes the strongest engines in the world as per several rating lists, is setup in a comprehensive and challenging system (tuned by computer chess enthusiasts on forums) where an engine has to go through several stages and qualify within the top to be able to compete in the next stage. The cream of the crop are then left to duel it out and the very top two get to go toe to toe in a 48 match playoff! The time controls are quite long, which will tend to improve the quality of play ... plus the hardware is very powerful which makes things even more interesting! All engines compete on the same hardware and the author does not get the luxury of preparing "special" books that might hide some engine's weaknesses and make it play much stronger than it really is.

If you really think about it, the TCEC setup is EXACTLY how a World Chess Championship should be. It was setup to get through all the BS and biased politics and pompous characters involved in previous attempts to crown a World Chess Championship, and give us a winner based on a fair and comprehensive tournament where spectators can follow and watch the games live. No wonder it has such a huge following ... but of course the huge following is by people who according to you do not "matter". The reason the TCEC exists is because there was a HUGE vacuum created by the ridiculous ICGA and it needed to be filled. So you guys that matter can enjoy your ICGA tournament and crown whoever you please, but please don't try and convince the rest of us that you should be taken seriously.

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AdminX
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Re: What engine is World computer chess champion?

Post by AdminX » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:17 pm

M ANSARI wrote:
hgm wrote:Yes, and you can dream that it actually is a World Championship Chess! :idea:

And why wouldn't it actually be the World Championship of Chess engines? It includes the strongest engines in the world as per several rating lists, is setup in a comprehensive and challenging system (tuned by computer chess enthusiasts on forums) where an engine has to go through several stages and qualify within the top to be able to compete in the next stage. The cream of the crop are then left to duel it out and the very top two get to go toe to toe in a 48 match playoff! The time controls are quite long, which will tend to improve the quality of play ... plus the hardware is very powerful which makes things even more interesting! All engines compete on the same hardware and the author does not get the luxury of preparing "special" books that might hide some engine's weaknesses and make it play much stronger than it really is.

If you really think about it, the TCEC setup is EXACTLY how a World Chess Championship should be. It was setup to get through all the BS and biased politics and pompous characters involved in previous attempts to crown a World Chess Championship, and give us a winner based on a fair and comprehensive tournament where spectators can follow and watch the games live. No wonder it has such a huge following ... but of course the huge following is by people who according to you do not "matter". The reason the TCEC exists is because there was a HUGE vacuum created by the ridiculous ICGA and it needed to be filled. So you guys that matter can enjoy your ICGA tournament and crown whoever you please, but please don't try and convince the rest of us that you should be taken seriously.
If Martin intended for TCEC to be a World Computer Chess Championship he would have stated so. The way I see it people are trying to railroad Martin's Event and make it something other than which he has intended.
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
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Re: What engine is World computer chess champion?

Post by poet » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:35 pm

AdminX wrote: If Martin intended for TCEC to be a World Computer Chess Championship he would have stated so. The way I see it people are trying to railroad Martin's Event and make it something other than which he has intended.
Martin has never made any claim, nor has anyone asked him to.
There's no railroading here.
ICGA does its thing, TCEC does its thing.
People looked at the 2 and decided which they prefer.
Happens all the time.

That's what Bob doesn't seem to get.
No-ones asking permission.
No-ones suggesting we NEED a changing of the guard.

We're saying its happened. Without the need for approval, or official sanction, or forcing Martin to change anything he's doing.
ICGA lost its appeal for many, and they found something they like better, that's all that's happened here really.
And if those people wish to view whichever winner of whichever tournament as their world champion, no amount of crying or shouting is going to change that.

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fern
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Re: Undisputed WCCC-Champion 2014

Post by fern » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:20 pm

No problem.
In fact In have had already two people connected with this site.
Just bring thaT 5 THOUSAND BUCKS
winter season, special prices...

fern

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hgm
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Re: What engine is World computer chess champion?

Post by hgm » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:50 pm

M ANSARI wrote:All engines compete on the same hardware and the author does not get the luxury of preparing "special" books that might hide some engine's weaknesses and make it play much stronger than it really is.
All of that would of course be exactly the reason why it could never be considered the World Championship Chess.

Opening theory is an important part of Chess. Take it out, and what you are left with is no longer Chess. Programs are 'really' as strong as they are with their own book.

What you are saying is just as silly as proposing that it should be decided who is World Champion cycling by putting cyclists one by one on a home trainer equipped with an ergometer, that measures to a precision of 6 digits how many kWhr of energy they produced in an afternoon. It might be accurate. It might be challenging for the athletes. But it just isn't cycling....

If you want Chess without opening theory, play Chess960!

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M ANSARI
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Re: What engine is World computer chess champion?

Post by M ANSARI » Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:20 am

hgm wrote:
M ANSARI wrote:All engines compete on the same hardware and the author does not get the luxury of preparing "special" books that might hide some engine's weaknesses and make it play much stronger than it really is.
All of that would of course be exactly the reason why it could never be considered the World Championship Chess.

Opening theory is an important part of Chess. Take it out, and what you are left with is no longer Chess. Programs are 'really' as strong as they are with their own book.

What you are saying is just as silly as proposing that it should be decided who is World Champion cycling by putting cyclists one by one on a home trainer equipped with an ergometer, that measures to a precision of 6 digits how many kWhr of energy they produced in an afternoon. It might be accurate. It might be challenging for the athletes. But it just isn't cycling....

If you want Chess without opening theory, play Chess960!

The cycling analogy simply doesn't work here, sorry! But if you insist on using cycling as an analogy, a better one would be that having a special "book" cooked up for an engine would be in "cycling" terms the same as having someone put the bike and biker on one of the cars riding along as soon as the difficult hilly part comes along. Instead of getting the bike and biker prepared for the hill beforehand ... well hell, putting them in the car and driving through that part quickly fixes that! Theoretically you could create a perfect comprehensive book that could play and beat every engine on earth without a single line of chess playing code. While I certainly do enjoy the book preparation for a chess engine match, most of the other posters who participated in getting the right setup for TCEC thought it was not a good idea to include a specialized engine book for each engine that participates ... and I have to admit that I agree with them now. As for Chess960 ... well again it is totally different than normal chess and I feel it needs to weed out some openings that are totally won for one side. But normal Chess has withstood the test of time and so far black has always managed to find a draw, and that is most likely due to the fact that from the start position the game is drawn.

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