Crazy move from Critter in the TCEC against Shredder!!!

S.Taylor · Post by **S.Taylor** » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:17 pm

zullil wrote:
S.Taylor wrote:Beautiful! I have to think if a human could have played like this. Could any world champ past or present have done it?
Probably many human chess players would find this move.

I see. Maybe. Whoever sees the whole picture may look for an immeadiate way of getting the bishop out the way to clear first rank for rooks.

Obviously i suppose it didn't just jump out of the blue!

Steve Maughan · Post by **Steve Maughan** » Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:49 pm

Since Maverick isn't that selective (yet!), it find the mate in 8 quickly (5 secs) om my 2.8 GHz i7.

[D]r4rk1/2qn1p2/p3pbpB/4n2Q/1pbN1N2/5P2/PPP5/2K1R1R1 w - -

Engine: Maverick 0.51 x64 (512 MB)
by Steve Maughan

2/12 0:00 -3.08 1.Bxf8 Kxf8 (1.232)

3/16 0:00 -3.38 1.Bxf8 Rxf8 2.b3 Nxf3 3.Qxf3 Bxd4
4.bxc4 Bxg1 5.Rxg1 Qxc4 (8.261)

4/16 0:00 -3.37 1.Bxf8 Kxf8 2.Qh2 Rc8 3.Qh6+ Ke7 (30.202)

5/18 0:00 -3.29 1.Bxf8 Kxf8 2.Qh6+ Bg7 3.Qh3 Rc8 (133.587)

6/22 0:00 -3.68 1.Bxf8 Kxf8 2.Qh2 Qc5 3.c3 Bxa2
4.Qh6+ Ke7 (439.305)

6/25 0:00 -3.67++ 1.Nxg6 (1.147.321)

6/27 0:00 +1.60 1.Nxg6 fxg6 2.Rxg6+ Nxg6 3.Qxg6+ Kh8
4.Rh1 Qh2 5.Rxh2 (1.786.680)

7/29 0:00 +1.60 1.Nxg6 fxg6 2.Rxg6+ Nxg6 3.Qxg6+ Kh8
4.Rh1 Qh2 5.Rxh2 (3.034.925)

8/31 0:05 +M8 1.Nxg6 fxg6 2.Rxg6+ Bg7 3.Rxg7+ Kh8
4.Rg8+ Kh7 5.Bd2+ Kxg8 6.Rg1+ Ng6
7.Qxg6+ Kh8 8.Qg7+ (25.722.388) 4516

bob · Post by **bob** » Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:00 pm

Isaac wrote:Wow!!!! A mind blowing move that blows engines!
In the following position: r4rk1/2qn1p2/p3pbpB/3bn2Q/1p1N1N2/5P2/PPP5/2K1RBR1 w - - 12 27, critter played Bc4!
A move that Stockfish finds around depth 31 I think.
I still can't really understand this move. It seems to free a rook... but is that really about freeing the rook?

Well, if Bxc4, then there is a checkmate in 8 plies! I have let SF think on the position r4rk1/2qn1p2/p3pbpB/4n2Q/1pbN1N2/5P2/PPP5/2K1R1R1 w - - 0 28 and despite having a very large score (around +25), it doesn't find the checkmate in 8. I wonder how much depth is required for it to see it.
If you play Nxg6 then it will find the checkmate and using the hash, if you go back 1 move before it will finally stick to mate in 8.

Looks like it is not particularly hard to find. Crafty is not known to be a fast "finder" and hits on this in just under a minute (Bc4). Takes a couple of minutes to get a real score back after multiple fail-highs.

Code: Select all

         22    26.42          1.80   1. Nxd5 exd5 2. f4 b3 3. axb3 Qa5 4. Rxe5
                                     Nxe5 5. fxe5 Qe1+ 6. Qd1 Qxe5 7. Rg4 Rfe8
                                     8. Bd2 Bg7 9. c3 Qh5 10. Bd3 Reb8 11. Be3
                                     Qh3 12. Qf3 Qxf3 13. Nxf3 Rxb3
         22    57.87            ++   1. Bc4! (>+1.81&#41;
         22     1&#58;11            ++   1. Bc4! (>+1.97&#41;
         22     1&#58;21            ++   1. Bc4! (>+2.29&#41;
         22     1&#58;32            ++   1. Bc4! (>+2.93&#41;
         22     1&#58;50            ++   1. Bc4! (>+4.21&#41;
         22     3&#58;54            ++   1. Bc4! (>+6.77&#41;
         22    10&#58;49          7.83   1. Bc4 Nc5 2. Nxd5 exd5 3. Bxd5 Kh7 4.
                                     Rxg6 fxg6 5. Qh1 Nf7 6. Bf4+ Kg7 7. Bxc7
                                     Bxd4 8. Qh4 Bf6 9. Qxb4 Nd7 10. Bxa8 Rxa8
                                     11. f4 Rh8
         22->  10&#58;49          7.83   1. Bc4 Nc5 2. Nxd5 exd5 3. Bxd5 Kh7 4.
                                     Rxg6 fxg6 5. Qh1 Nf7 6. Bf4+ Kg7 7. Bxc7
                                     Bxd4 8. Qh4 Bf6 9. Qxb4 Nd7 10. Bxa8 Rxa8
                                     11. f4 Rh8 &#40;s=2&#41;
         23    11&#58;23            ++   1. Bc4! (>+7.99&#41;
         23    11&#58;54          8.07   1. Bc4 Nc5 2. Nxd5 exd5 3. Bxd5 Kh7 4.
                                     Rxg6 fxg6 5. Qh1 Nf7 6. Bf4+ Kg8 7. Bxc7
                                     Bxd4 8. Qh4 Rac8 9. Qxd4 Rxc7 10. Bxf7+
                                     Rcxf7 11. Qxc5 Rxf3 12. Qxb4
         23->  12&#58;15          8.07   1. Bc4 Nc5 2. Nxd5 exd5 3. Bxd5 Kh7 4.
                                     Rxg6 fxg6 5. Qh1 Nf7 6. Bf4+ Kg8 7. Bxc7
                                     Bxd4 8. Qh4 Rac8 9. Qxd4 Rxc7 10. Bxf7+
                                     Rcxf7 11. Qxc5 Rxf3 12. Qxb4 &#40;s=2&#41;
         24    13&#58;20            ++   1. Bc4! (>+8.23&#41;
         24    13&#58;30          8.23   1. Bc4 Nc5 2. Nxd5 exd5 3. Bxd5 Kh7 4.
                                     Rxg6 fxg6 5. Qh1 Nf7 6. Bf4+ Kg8 7. Bxc7
                                     Bxd4 8. Qh4 Rac8 9. Qxd4 Rxc7 10. Bxf7+
                                     Rcxf7 11. Qxc5 Rxf3 12. Qxb4 R8f7
         24->  13&#58;50          8.23   1. Bc4 Nc5 2. Nxd5 exd5 3. Bxd5 Kh7 4.
                                     Rxg6 fxg6 5. Qh1 Nf7 6. Bf4+ Kg8 7. Bxc7
                                     Bxd4 8. Qh4 Rac8 9. Qxd4 Rxc7 10. Bxf7+
                                     Rcxf7 11. Qxc5 Rxf3 12. Qxb4 R8f7 &#40;s=2&#41;

The mate is very easy to find, however. After Bc4 Bxc4:

Code: Select all

          9->   0.12/42.70    4.92   2. Nxg6 fxg6 3. Rxg6+ Bg7 4. Rxg7+ Kh8
                                     5. Rg8+ Kh7 6. Bf4+ Kxg8 7. Rg1+ Ng4 8.
                                     Bxc7 &#40;s=2&#41;
         10     0.12/42.70      ++   2. Nxg6! (>+5.08&#41;                  
         10     0.13/42.70      ++   2. Nxg6! (>+5.24&#41;                  
         10     0.13/42.70    5.44   2. Nxg6 fxg6 3. Rxg6+ Nxg6 4. Qxg6+ Kh8
                                     5. Rh1 Qh2 6. Rxh2 Be5 7. Bxf8+ Bxh2 8.
                                     Bxb4
         10->   0.13/38.43    5.44   2. Nxg6 fxg6 3. Rxg6+ Nxg6 4. Qxg6+ Kh8
                                     5. Rh1 Qh2 6. Rxh2 Be5 7. Bxf8+ Bxh2 8.
                                     Bxb4 &#40;s=2&#41;
         11     0.14/38.43      ++   2. Nxg6! (>+5.60&#41;                  
         11     0.15/38.43      ++   2. Nxg6! (>+5.76&#41;                  
         11     0.16/38.43      ++   2. Nxg6! (>+6.08&#41;                  
         11     0.17/38.43      ++   2. Nxg6! (>+6.72&#41;                  
         11     0.19/38.43      ++   2. Nxg6! (>+8.00&#41;                  
         11     0.21/38.43      ++   2. Nxg6! (>+10.56&#41;                  
         11     0.23/38.43   14.28   2. Nxg6 Bg5+ 3. Rxg5 Nd3+ 4. Kd2 Qh2+ 5.
                                     Qxh2 fxg6 6. cxd3 Bxa2 7. Bxf8 Nxf8
         11->   0.24/34.46   14.28   2. Nxg6 Bg5+ 3. Rxg5 Nd3+ 4. Kd2 Qh2+ 5.
                                     Qxh2 fxg6 6. cxd3 Bxa2 7. Bxf8 Nxf8 &#40;s=2&#41;
         12     0.25/34.46      ++   2. Nxg6! (>+14.44&#41;                  
         12     0.25/34.46      ++   2. Nxg6! (>+14.60&#41;                  
         12     0.26/34.46      ++   2. Nxg6! (>+14.92&#41;                  
         12     0.26/34.46      ++   2. Nxg6! (>+15.56&#41;                  
         12     0.27/34.46      ++   2. Nxg6! (>+16.84&#41;                  
         12     0.28/34.46      ++   2. Nxg6! (>+19.40&#41;                  
         12     0.29/34.46      ++   2. Nxg6! (>+24.52&#41;   
         12     0.31/34.46   Mat08   2. Nxg6 fxg6 3. Rxg6+ Bg7 4. Rxg7+ Kh8
                                     5. Rg8+ Kh7 6. Bf4+ Kxg8 7. Rg1+ Ng6 8.
                                     Qxg6+ Kh8 9. Qg7#
         12->   0.32/30.80   Mat08   2. Nxg6 fxg6 3. Rxg6+ Bg7 4. Rxg7+ Kh8
                                     5. Rg8+ Kh7 6. Bf4+ Kxg8 7. Rg1+ Ng6 8.
                                     Qxg6+ Kh8 9. Qg7#
         13     0.33/30.80   Mat08   2. Nxg6 fxg6 3. Rxg6+ Bg7 4. Rxg7+ Kh8
                                     5. Rg8+ Kh7 6. Bf4+ Kxg8 7. Rg1+ Ng6 8.
                                     Qxg6+ Kh8 9. Qg7#
         13->   0.34/27.45   Mat08   2. Nxg6 fxg6 3. Rxg6+ Bg7 4. Rxg7+ Kh8
                                     5. Rg8+ Kh7 6. Bf4+ Kxg8 7. Rg1+ Ng6 8.
                                     Qxg6+ Kh8 9. Qg7#

bob · Post by **bob** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:20 am

Here's a game. Look at Black's move 47 (Topolov vs Shirov, late 90's, don't remember exactly when):

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "?"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Topolov"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[Black "Shirov"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[Result "0-1"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3
Bg7 7. Bb5+ c6 8. Ba4 O-O 9. Ne2 Nd7 10. O-O e5 11. f3 Qe7 12. Be3
Rd8 13. Qc2 Nb6 14. Bb3 Be6 15. Rad1 Nc4 16. Bc1 b5 17. f4 exd4
18. Nxd4 Bg4 19. Rde1 Qc5 20. Kh1 a5 21. h3 Bd7 22. a4 bxa4
23. Ba2 Be8 24. e5 Nb6 25. f5 Nd5 26. Bd2 Nb4 27. Qxa4 Nxa2
28. Qxa2 Bxe5 29. fxg6 hxg6 30. Bg5 Rd5 31. Re3 Qd6 32. Qe2
Bd7 33. c4 Bxd4 34. cxd5 Bxe3 35. Qxe3 Re8 36. Qc3 Qxd5 37. Bh6
Re5 38. Rf3 Qc5 39. Qa1 Bf5 40. Re3 f6 41. Rxe5 Qxe5 42. Qa2+
Qd5 43. Qxd5+ cxd5 44. Bd2 a4 45. Bc3 Kf7 46. h4 Ke6 47. Kg1

I would rate this much harder than the above position. Played in a real OTB tournament.

zullil · Post by **zullil** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:44 pm

bob wrote:Here's a game. Look at Black's move 47 (Topolov vs Shirov, late 90's, don't remember exactly when):
[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "?"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Topolov"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[Black "Shirov"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[Result "0-1"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4 Nxc3 6. bxc3
Bg7 7. Bb5+ c6 8. Ba4 O-O 9. Ne2 Nd7 10. O-O e5 11. f3 Qe7 12. Be3
Rd8 13. Qc2 Nb6 14. Bb3 Be6 15. Rad1 Nc4 16. Bc1 b5 17. f4 exd4
18. Nxd4 Bg4 19. Rde1 Qc5 20. Kh1 a5 21. h3 Bd7 22. a4 bxa4
23. Ba2 Be8 24. e5 Nb6 25. f5 Nd5 26. Bd2 Nb4 27. Qxa4 Nxa2
28. Qxa2 Bxe5 29. fxg6 hxg6 30. Bg5 Rd5 31. Re3 Qd6 32. Qe2
Bd7 33. c4 Bxd4 34. cxd5 Bxe3 35. Qxe3 Re8 36. Qc3 Qxd5 37. Bh6
Re5 38. Rf3 Qc5 39. Qa1 Bf5 40. Re3 f6 41. Rxe5 Qxe5 42. Qa2+
Qd5 43. Qxd5+ cxd5 44. Bd2 a4 45. Bc3 Kf7 46. h4 Ke6 47. Kg1
[/pgn]
I would rate this much harder than the above position. Played in a real OTB tournament.

yanquis1972 · Post by **yanquis1972** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:23 pm

here are gull & komodo, both elite strength but neither regarded as quick --

Engine: Gull 3 x64 (2048 MB)
by ThinkingALot

15/44 0:01 +1.49 1.Nxd5 exd5 2.f4 b3 3.axb3 Qa5
4.Rxe5 Nxe5 5.fxe5 Qe1+ 6.Qd1 Qxe5
7.Rg4 Rfe8 8.Bd2 Bg7 9.Bg2 Rad8
10.Qh1 Rd7 11.Bf3 Qd6 12.Kb1 f5
13.Rh4 Bxd4 14.Rxd4 (8.515.366) 6647

16/45 0:02 +1.57++ 1.Nxd5 exd5 2.f4 b3 3.Nxb3 Rfc8
4.Rg2 Kh8 5.Qh3 Ng4 6.Qxg4 Bxb2+
7.Kxb2 Qc3+ 8.Ka3 Qxe1 9.Qxd7 Qxf1
10.Qxd5 (16.653.274) 7059

17/44 0:03 +1.65++ 1.Nxd5 exd5 2.f4 b3 3.Nxb3 Rfc8
4.Rg2 Kh8 5.Qh3 Nc4 6.Bxc4 dxc4
7.Rh2 Kg8 8.Bg5 Nf8 9.Bxf6 Qxf4+
10.Nd2 Qxf6 11.Rf1 Re8 12.Nxc4 (27.969.663) 7276

18/54 0:07 +1.81++ 1.Nxd5 exd5 2.f4 b3 3.Nxb3 Rfc8
4.Rg2 Kh7 5.Qh3 Ng4 6.Bg5+ Kg8 7.Kb1 a5
8.a4 Bxg5 9.fxg5 Nde5 10.Bb5 Kg7
11.Rxg4 Qxc2+ 12.Ka2 Nxg4 13.Qxg4 Kg8
14.Qd4 (56.377.377) 7378

19/56 0:20 +2.13++ 1.Nxd5 exd5 2.f4 b3 3.Nxb3 Rfc8
4.Rg2 Kh7 5.Qh3 Ng4 6.Bg5+ Kg8 7.Kb1 a5
8.a4 Bxg5 9.fxg5 Nde5 10.Bb5 Kg7
11.Rxg4 Qxc2+ 12.Ka2 Nxg4 13.Qxg4 Qf2
14.Rf1 (151.360.087) 7389

20/63 1:06 +2.34 1.Nxd5 exd5 2.f4 b3 3.Nxb3 Rfc8 4.c3 Ng4
5.Rxg4 Bxc3 6.Kb1 Kh8 7.Rxg6 fxg6
8.Qxg6 Nc5 9.bxc3 Qh7 10.f5 Qxg6
11.fxg6 Nxb3 12.axb3 Rxc3 13.Kb2 Rg3
14.Re6 (495.072.604) 7502

20/58 1:35 +2.77++ 1.Bc4 Nc5 2.Nxd5 exd5 3.Bxd5 Kh7
4.Qh1 Rh8 5.Bxa8 Ncd3+ 6.Kb1 Nxe1
7.Rxe1 Kg8 8.f4 Bg7 9.fxe5 Bxh6
10.Qd5 Kg7 11.Rh1 (718.240.491) 7556

21/60 2:32 +4.05++ 1.Bc4 Nc5 2.Nxd5 exd5 3.Bxd5 Kh7
4.Qh1 Rh8 5.Bxa8 Ncd3+ 6.Kb1 Nxe1
7.Bg5+ Kg8 8.Bxf6 Rxh1 9.Rxh1 (1.163.163.440) 7643

r4rk1/2qn1p2/p3pbpB/3bn2Q/1p1N1N2/5P2/PPP5/2K1RBR1 w - -

Engine: Komodo TCECr 64-bit (2048 MB)
by Don Dailey, Larry Kaufman, Mark Lefler

14.00 0:01 +1.44 1.Nxd5 exd5 2.f4 Rfe8 3.fxe5 Bxe5
4.Rd1 Nf6 5.Qf5 Ne4 6.Qf3 Rac8 7.Rg2 Qb6
8.Be3 a5 9.Kb1 Qf6 10.Qh3 Bf4 (9.129.470) 5382

15.00 0:02 +1.44 1.Nxd5 exd5 2.f4 Rfe8 3.fxe5 Bxe5
4.Rd1 Nf6 5.Qf5 Ne4 6.Qf3 Rac8 7.Rg2 Qb6
8.Be3 a5 9.Kb1 Qf6 10.Qh3 Qg7 (11.268.162) 5522

16.00 0:03 +1.37 1.Nxd5 exd5 2.f4 b3 3.axb3 Qa5
4.Rxe5 Nxe5 5.fxe5 Qe1+ 6.Qd1 Qxe5
7.c3 Rfe8 8.Nf3 Qe6 9.Bd3 Rad8
10.Ng5 Qe5 11.Kb1 d4 12.c4 Bxg5
13.Bxg5 Rb8 (22.027.240) 5813

17.01 0:05 +1.40 1.Nxd5 exd5 2.f4 b3 3.axb3 Qa5
4.Rxe5 Nxe5 5.fxe5 Qe1+ 6.Qd1 Qxe5
7.c3 Rfe8 8.Nf3 Qe6 9.Bd3 Rad8
10.Bf4 d4 11.c4 Qc6 12.Kb1 Re4
13.Bd2 Re7 14.Rh1 (30.949.111) 5975

18.01 0:08 +1.24-- 1.Nxd5 exd5 (49.877.770) 6128

18.01 0:09 +1.25++ 1.Nxd5 (62.711.821) 6296

19.01 0:20 +1.41++ 1.Nxd5 (127.163.012) 6277

19.01 0:35 +1.52 1.Nxd5 exd5 2.f4 b3 3.axb3 Qa5
4.Rxe5 Nxe5 5.fxe5 Qe1+ 6.Qd1 Qxe5
7.c3 Rfe8 8.Bd2 Bg7 9.Bd3 Qh2 10.Nf3 Qd6
11.Rg4 Qb6 12.Rb4 Qf2 13.Kb1 Rab8
14.Rxb8 (223.223.192) 6248

20.01 0:53 +1.73++ 1.Nxd5 (338.043.196) 6275

20.01 0:54 +1.72-- 1.Nxd5 exd5 (343.338.372) 6286

21.01 1:39 +1.95++ 1.Nxd5 (628.466.445) 6292

21.01 1:46 +1.94-- 1.Nxd5 exd5 (673.207.833) 6309

22.01 2:09 +1.93 1.Nxd5 exd5 2.f4 b3 3.Nxb3 Rfc8 4.c3 Ng4
5.Rxg4 Bxc3 6.Kb1 Kh8 7.Rxg6 fxg6
8.Qxg6 Nc5 9.bxc3 Qh7 10.f5 Qxg6
11.fxg6 Nxb3 12.axb3 Rxc3 13.Re3 Rxe3
14.Bxe3 (823.312.977) 6377

23.01 3:47 +1.77-- 1.Nxd5 exd5 (1.474.190.609) 6485

23.30 5:55 +2.09++ 1.Bc4 (2.320.006.267) 6531

have to wonder what time the latest (release candidate) komodo would get on my machine. i would guess much faster...

syzygy · Post by **syzygy** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:28 pm

This is one of these cases where a short solution time may be an indication of the weakness of an engine. Mine finds it after 13.8 seconds:

Code: Select all

  0&#58;13.823  13  485120430 >  +1.853   27.Bc4
  0&#58;22.333  13  811624271    +4.290   27.Bc4 Nc5 28.Bxd5 Ncd3+ 29.Nxd3 Nxd3+ 30.Kb1 exd5 31.Ne6 Rfe8 32.Nxc7 Rxe1+ 33.Rxe1 gxh5 34.Rg1+ Kh7 35.Nxa8

sainzlei · Post by **sainzlei** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:01 pm

New game
r4rk1/2qn1p2/p3pbpB/3bn2Q/1p1N1N2/5P2/PPP5/2K1RBR1 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 230414 64 SSE4.2:

27.Bc4 Bxc4 28.Nxg6 Nd3+ 29.Kb1 Bxa2+ 30.Kxa2
+- (2.43 ++) Depth: 27/44 00:00:25 116mN
(Doe, 30.04.2014)

Core i5-4440 , 1G Ram

ernest · Post by **ernest** » Wed Apr 30, 2014 7:19 pm

Houdini finds everything there immediately...

Crazy move from Critter in the TCEC against Shredder!!!

Re: Crazy move from Critter in the TCEC against Shredder!!!

Re: Crazy move from Critter in the TCEC against Shredder!!!

Re: Crazy move from Critter in the TCEC against Shredder!!!

Re: Crazy move from Critter in the TCEC against Shredder!!!

Re: Crazy move from Critter in the TCEC against Shredder!!!

Re: Crazy move from Critter in the TCEC against Shredder!!!

Re: Crazy move from Critter in the TCEC against Shredder!!!

Re: Crazy move from Critter in the TCEC against Shredder!!!

Re: Crazy move from Critter in the TCEC against Shredder!!!