What's Vasik Rajlich doing today?

[Sedat Canbaz]

Sedat ...
FACT is ... you stand from the 1.000 persons under my TOP-10
Have nothing to do with your opinion to Rybka, Vas or other things. Graham is also under my TOP-10.

More Sedat's can make Computer chess much more interesting. Please not forget my opinion to your person, also in case we have here build an other opinion.

Best
Frank

Oh I missed that ))

Hehe...ok no problem dear Frank,
My goal is not to be in your Top 10 famous list )))

Just a few notes about you,
Your efforts for CompterChess are great...really, I respect that...thank you again
And there is no doubt that,
You are one the best journalist in our chess engine area )!

But the reality is reality, this should be known too,
Your opinions about ComputerChess is not so stabil, it's like a barometer ))
You have a lot of complexes my friend, you are too naive in my eyes...
You are allowing engines, which are based on others work...
And you are trying to give us lessons about origins...come on )))
-I am laughing also oftenly in your Elo rating calculations....too low ...you should increase your start Elo calculations
Also it looks like you are 'too much' biased on Fabien's views...you have to create your own...

And please don't get me wrong...I just wanted to help

And I hope,
Our friendship for 2 engines will be not damaged and will be continued as before, of course if you have BIG heart )!


Best,
Sedat

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Sedat,

my opinion has nothing to do which "a posssible" opinion Fabian have. I am speaking for myself. Fabian don't need "my megaphone"

Again, Fabian is a very friendly programmer and I "believe" his opinion about it is much smarter as my own. But again, I am not mouthpiece for Fabian.

Should you deleted on your list.

My effort for Computer chess is very selfish. Because I got all what I do 1000x back. I know that before ... in most of cases.

Complexes ... oh yes, I have it.
A nice women in daily shopping could be the reason.

I wrote why I allowing engines and why not. I am not a god Sedat. Do you know how many mistakes in organization I do in the past. Not all what I do are allways good.

Elo Rating calculation:
Computer chess elo isn't to compare with human Elo.

Most humans games are over around move 40-50. Most of the cases after Problems in middlegame. Computer chess have an other Quality. 80% of Computer chess games are translposition into endgame. Here I am sure that best chess programs are playing 400 Elo stronger as Super grandmasters. Not in the middlegame and not after opening book moves.

Computer chess Elo and human Elo isn't 1:1 to compare. I am very happy with Ratings I produce but I know that the Ratings are not exactly. Again, not possible to compare human Elo with Computer chess Elo.

You can help me every time.
Perhaps in situations two nice Girls are over the Counter in daily shopping. So you can explain Girl 1 Rybka and I explain Girl 2 Fruit. Maybe we should the cashier integrated. I am sure end of the day the Girls explain us other things and we will never discuss again Fruit and Rybka in the future. Brain is out of control.



Best
Frank

No longer time ... have to wash
Furthermore ... C02 ... Französisch Vorstoß Variante is still running
Means in round 41 ... Andscacs vs. Arasan! Interesting opening ... don't means what I wrote before ... have to wrote it, others could thinking ...

And I have the latest game from Bursa ... on place 4 in Turkish football. I am looking often Turkish football in Sport1. Really strong the league, maybe 2.800 Elo today, really interesting.

[BBauer]

As I had and still have difficulties to understand this kind of english I took a google translation to german. So Frank can understand what he has written.

Here the translation to german:
------------------------------------
Hallo Sedat ,

Meiner Meinung nach hat das nichts zu tun, die " ein posssible " Meinung Fabian haben . Ich bin für mich selbst sprechen . Fabian müssen nicht " mein Megaphon " Lächeln

Auch hier ist Fabian ein sehr freundliches Programmierer, und ich "glauben" seine Meinung ist viel klüger als meine eigene . Aber noch einmal , ich bin nicht für Fabian Mundstück .

Sollten Sie auf Ihrer Liste gelöscht.

Ihr Aufwand für Computer-Schach ist sehr egoistisch. Weil ich stand , was ich tun 1000x zurück . Ich weiß, dass vor ... in den meisten Fällen .

Komplexe ... oh ja, ich habe es.
Eine schöne Frauen in den täglichen Einkauf könnte der Grund sein .

Ich schrieb , warum ich so Motoren und warum nicht. Ich bin kein Gott Sedat . Wissen Sie, wie viele Fehler in Organisation, die ich in der Vergangenheit zu tun. Nicht alle , was ich tun sind immer gut.

Elo Rating -Berechnung :
Computerschach elo ist nicht mit menschlichen Elo vergleichen .

Die meisten Menschen Spiele sind mehr als 40 bis 50 bewegen . Die meisten Fälle , nachdem Probleme in Mittelspiel . Computerschach haben eine andere Qualität . 80% der Computer-Schach -Spiele sind translposition ins Endspiel. Hier bin ich sicher, dass die besten Schachprogramme spielen 400 Elo besser als Super- Großmeister. Nicht im Mittelspiel und nicht nach dem Öffnen Buch bewegt .

Computerschach Elo und Menschen Elo ist nicht 1: 1 zu vergleichen . Ich bin sehr glücklich mit Bewertungen I produzieren , aber ich weiß , dass die Bewertungen sind nicht genau . Auch nicht möglich, menschliche Elo mit Computerschach Elo vergleichen .

Sie können mir helfen, jedes Mal .
Vielleicht in Situationen, zwei schöne Mädchen sind über den Zähler in den täglichen Einkauf . So können Sie Girl 1 Rybka zu erklären und ich erkläre Girl 2 Fruit . Vielleicht sollten wir die Kassiererin integriert. Ich bin sicher, Ende des Tages die Mädchen zu erklären uns andere Dinge und wir werden nie in der Zukunft zu diskutieren wieder Obst und Rybka . Brain ist außer Kontrolle geraten.

Lächeln

beste
frank

Nicht mehr Zeit ... haben sich zu waschen Sad
Außerdem ... C02 ... Französisch Vorstoß Variante noch läuft Lächeln
Bedeutet in rund 41 ... Andscacs vs. Arasan ! Interessante Öffnung ... nicht bedeutet, zu tun , was ich schrieb , bevor ... müssen es schrieb , andere konnten Denken ...

Und ich habe das neueste Spiel von Bursa ... auf Platz 4 in der türkischen Fußball . Ich suche oft türkischen Fußball in Sport1 . Wirklich stark die Liga , vielleicht 2.800 Elo heute wirklich interessant.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Kind regards
Bernhard

[velmarin]

As I had and still have difficulties to understand this kind of english I took a google translation to german. So Frank can understand what he has written.

Here the translation to german:
------------------------------------
Hallo Sedat ,

Meiner Meinung nach hat das nichts zu tun, die " ein posssible " Meinung Fabian haben . Ich bin für mich selbst sprechen . Fabian müssen nicht " mein Megaphon " Lächeln

Auch hier ist Fabian ein sehr freundliches Programmierer, und ich "glauben" seine Meinung ist viel klüger als meine eigene . Aber noch einmal , ich bin nicht für Fabian Mundstück .

Sollten Sie auf Ihrer Liste gelöscht.

Ihr Aufwand für Computer-Schach ist sehr egoistisch. Weil ich stand , was ich tun 1000x zurück . Ich weiß, dass vor ... in den meisten Fällen .

Komplexe ... oh ja, ich habe es.
Eine schöne Frauen in den täglichen Einkauf könnte der Grund sein .

Ich schrieb , warum ich so Motoren und warum nicht. Ich bin kein Gott Sedat . Wissen Sie, wie viele Fehler in Organisation, die ich in der Vergangenheit zu tun. Nicht alle , was ich tun sind immer gut.

Elo Rating -Berechnung :
Computerschach elo ist nicht mit menschlichen Elo vergleichen .

Die meisten Menschen Spiele sind mehr als 40 bis 50 bewegen . Die meisten Fälle , nachdem Probleme in Mittelspiel . Computerschach haben eine andere Qualität . 80% der Computer-Schach -Spiele sind translposition ins Endspiel. Hier bin ich sicher, dass die besten Schachprogramme spielen 400 Elo besser als Super- Großmeister. Nicht im Mittelspiel und nicht nach dem Öffnen Buch bewegt .

Computerschach Elo und Menschen Elo ist nicht 1: 1 zu vergleichen . Ich bin sehr glücklich mit Bewertungen I produzieren , aber ich weiß , dass die Bewertungen sind nicht genau . Auch nicht möglich, menschliche Elo mit Computerschach Elo vergleichen .

Sie können mir helfen, jedes Mal .
Vielleicht in Situationen, zwei schöne Mädchen sind über den Zähler in den täglichen Einkauf . So können Sie Girl 1 Rybka zu erklären und ich erkläre Girl 2 Fruit . Vielleicht sollten wir die Kassiererin integriert. Ich bin sicher, Ende des Tages die Mädchen zu erklären uns andere Dinge und wir werden nie in der Zukunft zu diskutieren wieder Obst und Rybka . Brain ist außer Kontrolle geraten.

Lächeln

beste
frank

Nicht mehr Zeit ... haben sich zu waschen Sad
Außerdem ... C02 ... Französisch Vorstoß Variante noch läuft Lächeln
Bedeutet in rund 41 ... Andscacs vs. Arasan ! Interessante Öffnung ... nicht bedeutet, zu tun , was ich schrieb , bevor ... müssen es schrieb , andere konnten Denken ...

Und ich habe das neueste Spiel von Bursa ... auf Platz 4 in der türkischen Fußball . Ich suche oft türkischen Fußball in Sport1 . Wirklich stark die Liga , vielleicht 2.800 Elo heute wirklich interessant.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Kind regards
Bernhard

Oh, if you understood.
Please can you translate it back to English.
Thanks.

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hm ...
For me frankish (my over years own building "english" language) is more easy as pur english.

Not really an important message by myself.

Maybe what I wrote to human and computer chess Elo?

Most games between humans ended around move number 40-50. Most humans games find a decision in the middlegame. Chess between chess engines have other stats. Most games find a decision after the late middlegame before the endgame started. Here I am thinking that engines are playing around 400-500 Elo stronger as the strongest super grandmasters. After the openings and in the middlegame computer chess programs can't produce the high level compare to the late middlegame and transposition into endgame.

Better as Elo could be a more special calculation for chess engines. It make no sense to compare human elo with elo chess programs produced.

I am speaking from nice girls, from football in Turkey. Bursa is my favorite club in Turkey.

Nice Girls ... the answer of "complexes" ... jooking a bit in Frankish.

Best
Frank

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

So what goes on in the mind of the person Vasik Raijlich?

2. He is arrogant, if he states Ippolit=Rybka you just have to believe him, period, likewise in the R/F case;

3. In the end the programmers figured it out themselves, that Ippolit is a Rybka clone and maybe he relied on that in the R/F case;

Yes...after reading your interesting comments, one story came on my mind and decided to share with you)

I think it was around 2010, when Houdini is appeared on scene...
And on these days, I was wondering what will be Vas's reaction in case of if I will test Houdini...

And during our private mails,
I informed Vas that I am planning to test Houdini and his replay was:
- Sedat no problem, you can test any engine as you wish...

That shows how much Vas has a BIG heart....!!

Yes...we need more programmers as Vasik Rajlich !


Best,
Sedat

Sorry, but this is bullshit, simple and straightforward bullshit.

Actually, the whole thread is kind of a full and complete BS.

It takes the attention from other, much more important threads.
If I were a mod, I would suspend it, plain and simple.

Mr. Railich made so much money when he actually did not deserve to do so.
That was his goal, to earn money, and not to develop the strongest engine.
When he did that, he retired.

The time of Vas Railich, when Rybka ruled, was really a bad period for computer chess: Rybka was the only top engine, so for these 5 years all programmers managed to do was one single engine, partly original at that.

If you compare that with the past 4 or 5 years, they were definitely much much more fertile and productive:

- you had 3 or 4 top engines, much stronger than Rybka, would you like to live without Stockfish, Komodo and Houdini? I would not.
- in that time also the SF framework appeared, also quite a big achievement
- others ideas were published that did not exist previously

So, if you would like my opinion: it would be a complete disgrace if we move even 1 centimeter more towards any kind of Vasik Railich resuscitation. I do not want to hear about Vas Railich and the period Rybka dominated at all. Hope this will never get back. And I am sure it will not.

The mods will excuse me, but if a couple of people discuss completely pointless stuff and no one reprimands them, and this is tolerated, so why should not I be a bit more agressive, especially if I really feel so?
Please note that I am posting a single message, and some people already posted tens of completely pointless messages.

I will not answer any messages in this thread here, as I do not read it and it makes no sense.

Hope this thread will disappear from sight very soon.

[Sedat Canbaz]

Hello dear Frank,

Do you know where Vas made a BIG mistake ??
He worked very very hard...to add 500 Elo...is not as as it looks
I am still wondering: how is that possible over world strongest engine (Fruit) to add so extra many Elo points...

Yes.... Rybka's author made another BIG mistake:
Vas did not allow his engine to beatable in 6 years...I think it is 'too much' long period !)

BTW,
If the current thread was about opening books, for me will be much easier to prove you )
But it is not...so let's forget everything and let's concentrate as you said about girls, football, cars, movies...

Because we already talked a lot about these issues...
And as you see, our discussions are leading to nowhere...

Right now I am too busy...

See you later and please stay tuned )!



Best,
Sedat

[bob]

Perhaps you can also comment on my hypothetical example, aimed at illustrating the difference between copyright infringement and ICGA rule#2 violations. Because Ed still thinks these are exactly the same, and actually did explicitly mention you as someone that would agree with that.

Note that the example does not handle about using just a single PST, but all of them. (I took PST for this 'thought experiment' because they are the biggest tables used in Fruit, apart from the Zobrist keys, which are probably not protected by copyright in the first place.)

I did comment on this somewhere. Proving a copyright infringement is a more difficult (and unnecessary here) task. And since infringing copyright does not necessarily mean a rule 2 violation (we allow anyone to use Nalimov's egtb.cpp source, or Pradu's magic move generation), there is no point in addressing that specific issue.

Your PST point addresses an issue I have raised many times. One PST is just "interesting". MANY PSTs is damning. The latter shows that little original research was done to choose the values.

[bob]

If Rybka 1 have nothing to do with Fruit Vas had six years time to clear the situation.

Okay, this is going to be controversial, can be fun anyway, so let's have it

The right to silence is a fundamental right in court not to incriminate one self, or more subtle in his case not to talk (and explain) about his secrets that put him on top for quite some time. Silence doesn't mean (a sign of) guilt. In the end code decides if he is guilty or not.

Although I never met Vas in person due to my email contacts and his general behaviour in public I learned a bit about how he looks at things and he is not an every day person. Statements like: when I began with chess programming in 2003 I already knew I would go commercial I would dominate the rating lists. Think about that for a moment.

Take for instance the Sven-Vas correspondence about the origin of Ippolit, Sven asking specific questions that would proof Vas' claim Ippolit being Rybka in disguise. You see the same pattern as with the RF case, he doesn't answer Sven and remains vague and in the end you know nothing more than before. This while it was in his own interest to clear the case.

So what goes on in the mind of the person Vasik Raijlich?

Here are some options:

1. From a commercial perspective he doesn't want to give anyone information, not the tiniest bit;

2. He is arrogant, if he states Ippolit=Rybka you just have to believe him, period, likewise in the R/F case;

3. In the end the programmers figured it out themselves, that Ippolit is a Rybka clone and maybe he relied on that in the R/F case;

4. He doesn't trust anyone. Not even me, the latter I know for sure.

So place your bets

Would not be my choice, I would defend myself to death to such slander.

this is bogus. You have a right to avoid self-incrimination. You do NOT have a right to not disclose trade secrets. A judge can, and sometimes will, close the courtroom when such are being discussed. But there is no guaranteed right other than that you do not have to make self-incriminating statements, period.

As far as slander goes, he would first have to prove that everything released so far is completely false; and that he would then have to show that there was direct intent to harm him and nothing else.

He doesn't have a prayer for either.

It's unfortunate it came to this end. But computer chess continues. Copying continues. Just another sunrise to follow the last.

[bob]

Does that mean you are prepared to finally admit that they are different?

So that the claim that Vas has not been proven guilty of copyright infringement does not imply that he was not guilty of ICGA rule #2 violation....? And is in thuis context thus completely irrelevant?

The problem is that would throw out the Dalke comments entirely, since that is ALL he addressed and he explicitly stated that. Our not proving copyright infringement was his only point, something we have never claimed to have proven (one might argue that point today in light of the rather damaging hash code in Rybka 1.0 beta and beyond (until Vas rewrote the hash code somewhere in the Rybka 3.0 or 4.0 range.).

So he can't give up on the copyright issue or he loses his #1 witness.