Gligoric-Smyslov, 1959

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Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: Gligoric-Smyslov, 1959

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:26 pm

Smyslov was an incredible positional player, one of the best ever, if not the best.

So I think he assessed the position correctly.

I myself think black has some 90cps advantage on the main diagram, so winning.

But I am not certain if black's Rb3 is the best move.

I can see black win after Ra6 h4 h5

[d]b2r2k1/2q3b1/r5p1/p2nPp1p/2pP1P1P/2P5/R1B1NQ1K/2B2R2 w - h6 0 3
Anyone having a clue how white defends that?

Then black plays Kh7, Bf8, Rb8, Bc6 and pushes the a4 passer.
I do not see what white can do to prevent that.

Do you?

In any case, my SF agrees that in the above line black has a decisive advantage.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: Gligoric-Smyslov, 1959

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:19 pm

Yeah, I checked the position more thoroughly.

Rb3 does not win, but Ra6 does.

It seems I am a better player than Smyslov. :D

Black is much better on the main diagram for the simple reason that the 2 white central passers on d4 and e5 go nowhere, as the squares in front of them are firmly controlled by black pieces, while the a4 black passer can quickly advance.
But as engines do not consider square control...

Secondly, of course, the white king is too exposed, and that, coupled with the above, ensures black big advantage.

White has some good chain pawns, but that is a secondary factor in the position.

SF is a very weak positional player.
It slaughters me tactically, but hardly ever makes a single good positional move.

Anyone seeing how white can avoid defeat after Ra6?

zullil
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Re: Gligoric-Smyslov, 1959

Post by zullil » Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:57 am

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: I can see black win after Ra6 h4 h5

[d]b2r2k1/2q3b1/r5p1/p2nPp1p/2pP1P1P/2P5/R1B1NQ1K/2B2R2 w - h6 0 3
After searching almost 278 billion nodes, unfortunately SF can't see that White is lost.:roll:

Code: Select all

info depth 51 seldepth 72 multipv 1 score cp 0 nodes 277536981360 nps 20136946 hashfull 999 tbhits 0 time 13782476 pv f2g3 d8b8 c1a3 c7f7 f1a1 g8h7 e2g1 d5c3 g3c3 f7d5 c3h3 a6b6 g1f3 d5f3 h3f3 a8f3 h2g3 f3c6 a3d6 b8b7 a2a5 b6b2 a1a2 c4c3 d4d5 c6d5 a2b2 b7b2 a5d5 b2c2 d5c5 c2d2 d6e7 c3c2 c5c8 g7h6 e7f6 h6g7 f6g5 g7f8 g5f6 f8g7

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: Gligoric-Smyslov, 1959

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:25 am

zullil wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: I can see black win after Ra6 h4 h5

[d]b2r2k1/2q3b1/r5p1/p2nPp1p/2pP1P1P/2P5/R1B1NQ1K/2B2R2 w - h6 0 3
After searching almost 278 billion nodes, unfortunately SF can't see that White is lost.:roll:

Code: Select all

info depth 51 seldepth 72 multipv 1 score cp 0 nodes 277536981360 nps 20136946 hashfull 999 tbhits 0 time 13782476 pv f2g3 d8b8 c1a3 c7f7 f1a1 g8h7 e2g1 d5c3 g3c3 f7d5 c3h3 a6b6 g1f3 d5f3 h3f3 a8f3 h2g3 f3c6 a3d6 b8b7 a2a5 b6b2 a1a2 c4c3 d4d5 c6d5 a2b2 b7b2 a5d5 b2c2 d5c5 c2d2 d6e7 c3c2 c5c8 g7h6 e7f6 h6g7 f6g5 g7f8 g5f6 f8g7
What are 278 billion nodes, Louis?

You definitely need 128-core machine. :)

In your PV line, after white's Rfa1, play Bc6 instead of Kh7, and start analysing again from here:

[d]1r4k1/5qb1/r1b3p1/p2nPp1p/2pP1P1P/B1P3Q1/R1B1N2K/R7 w - - 0 4

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: Gligoric-Smyslov, 1959

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:51 am

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
zullil wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: I can see black win after Ra6 h4 h5

[d]b2r2k1/2q3b1/r5p1/p2nPp1p/2pP1P1P/2P5/R1B1NQ1K/2B2R2 w - h6 0 3
After searching almost 278 billion nodes, unfortunately SF can't see that White is lost.:roll:

Code: Select all

info depth 51 seldepth 72 multipv 1 score cp 0 nodes 277536981360 nps 20136946 hashfull 999 tbhits 0 time 13782476 pv f2g3 d8b8 c1a3 c7f7 f1a1 g8h7 e2g1 d5c3 g3c3 f7d5 c3h3 a6b6 g1f3 d5f3 h3f3 a8f3 h2g3 f3c6 a3d6 b8b7 a2a5 b6b2 a1a2 c4c3 d4d5 c6d5 a2b2 b7b2 a5d5 b2c2 d5c5 c2d2 d6e7 c3c2 c5c8 g7h6 e7f6 h6g7 f6g5 g7f8 g5f6 f8g7
What are 278 billion nodes, Louis?

You definitely need 128-core machine. :)

In your PV line, after white's Rfa1, play Bc6 instead of Kh7, and start analysing again from here:

[d]1r4k1/5qb1/r1b3p1/p2nPp1p/2pP1P1P/B1P3Q1/R1B1N2K/R7 w - - 0 4
Sorry, I missed Bc1.

I should not trust that SF is able to make more than a single correct move in a row in its PV.

Black deviates already on the second move with Kh7 instead of Rb8.

[d]b2r4/2q3bk/r5p1/p2nPp1p/2pP1P1P/2P3Q1/R1B1N2K/2B2R2 w - - 0 2

You might want to start analysing from here.

zullil
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Re: Gligoric-Smyslov, 1959

Post by zullil » Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:57 am

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: [d]b2r4/2q3bk/r5p1/p2nPp1p/2pP1P1P/2P3Q1/R1B1N2K/2B2R2 w - - 0 2

You might want to start analysing from here.
Actually, I want to go to sleep. Heading there now.

Code: Select all

info depth 45 seldepth 61 multipv 1 score cp 0 nodes 19871992182 nps 19023815 hashfull 999 tbhits 0 time 1044585 pv c2a4 a8c6 a4c6 c7c6 c1a3 a5a4 f1a1 g7f8 a3f8 d8f8 g3f3 f8b8 h2g3 h7g7 g3f2 c6d7 a2a4 a6a4 a1a4 d7a4 f3d5 b8b2 d5d6 a4d1 d6e7 g7g8 e7e8 g8g7 e8e7

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Gligoric-Smyslov, 1959

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:22 am

zullil wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: [d]b2r4/2q3bk/r5p1/p2nPp1p/2pP1P1P/2P3Q1/R1B1N2K/2B2R2 w - - 0 2

You might want to start analysing from here.
Actually, I want to go to sleep. Heading there now.

Code: Select all

info depth 45 seldepth 61 multipv 1 score cp 0 nodes 19871992182 nps 19023815 hashfull 999 tbhits 0 time 1044585 pv c2a4 a8c6 a4c6 c7c6 c1a3 a5a4 f1a1 g7f8 a3f8 d8f8 g3f3 f8b8 h2g3 h7g7 g3f2 c6d7 a2a4 a6a4 a1a4 d7a4 f3d5 b8b2 d5d6 a4d1 d6e7 g7g8 e7e8 g8g7 e8e7
Black does not change the bishops, of course, but plays Rb8:

[d]br6/2q3bk/r5p1/p2nPp1p/B1pP1P1P/2P3Q1/R3N2K/2B2R2 w - - 0 3

I would be happy, if you give it a shot when able to do so.

The change in score from equal to negative is very, very close...

Joerg Oster
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Location: Germany

Re: Gligoric-Smyslov, 1959

Post by Joerg Oster » Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:47 am

zullil wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: [d]b2r4/2q3bk/r5p1/p2nPp1p/2pP1P1P/2P3Q1/R1B1N2K/2B2R2 w - - 0 2

You might want to start analysing from here.
Actually, I want to go to sleep. Heading there now.

Code: Select all

info depth 45 seldepth 61 multipv 1 score cp 0 nodes 19871992182 nps 19023815 hashfull 999 tbhits 0 time 1044585 pv c2a4 a8c6 a4c6 c7c6 c1a3 a5a4 f1a1 g7f8 a3f8 d8f8 g3f3 f8b8 h2g3 h7g7 g3f2 c6d7 a2a4 a6a4 a1a4 d7a4 f3d5 b8b2 d5d6 a4d1 d6e7 g7g8 e7e8 g8g7 e8e7
Funny. In both pv's SF finds a draw by repetition.
This happens quite frequently. Don't trust SF's eval in such cases!
Jörg Oster

zullil
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Re: Gligoric-Smyslov, 1959

Post by zullil » Sun Mar 01, 2015 1:08 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
zullil wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: [d]b2r4/2q3bk/r5p1/p2nPp1p/2pP1P1P/2P3Q1/R1B1N2K/2B2R2 w - - 0 2

You might want to start analysing from here.
Actually, I want to go to sleep. Heading there now.

Code: Select all

info depth 45 seldepth 61 multipv 1 score cp 0 nodes 19871992182 nps 19023815 hashfull 999 tbhits 0 time 1044585 pv c2a4 a8c6 a4c6 c7c6 c1a3 a5a4 f1a1 g7f8 a3f8 d8f8 g3f3 f8b8 h2g3 h7g7 g3f2 c6d7 a2a4 a6a4 a1a4 d7a4 f3d5 b8b2 d5d6 a4d1 d6e7 g7g8 e7e8 g8g7 e8e7
Black does not change the bishops, of course, but plays Rb8:

[d]br6/2q3bk/r5p1/p2nPp1p/B1pP1P1P/2P3Q1/R3N2K/2B2R2 w - - 0 3

I would be happy, if you give it a shot when able to do so.

The change in score from equal to negative is very, very close...
While I was away, SF decided it prefers Ng1 to Ba4.

Code: Select all

info depth 52 seldepth 86 multipv 1 score cp 28 nodes 500852483894 nps 20999065 hashfull 999 tbhits 0 time 23851180 pv e2g1 c7b7 g1f3 d5c3 f3g5 h7g8 a2b2 b7d5 c2f5 g6f5 g3c3 g7h6 f1g1 a6g6 b2c2 d5d4 c3c4 d4c4 c2c4 h6g5 g1g5 g6g5 f4g5 a8d5 c4d4 d8d7 h2g3 d5c6 d4c4 d7d3 g3f2 c6d5 c4c5 a5a4 c5a5 d5b3 e5e6 b3e6 a5a4 e6d5 c1e3 d3c3 f2e2 c3b3 a4d4 d5e4 d4d6 b3b2 d6d2 b2b3 d2d8 g8f7 d8d6 b3b2 e3d2 b2b3 d2f4 b3b2 d6d2 b2c2 d2c2 e4c2
[D]b2r4/2q3bk/r5p1/p2nPp1p/2pP1P1P/2P3Q1/R1B4K/2B2RN1 b - - 1 2

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Gligoric-Smyslov, 1959

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:46 pm

zullil wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
zullil wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: [d]b2r4/2q3bk/r5p1/p2nPp1p/2pP1P1P/2P3Q1/R1B1N2K/2B2R2 w - - 0 2

You might want to start analysing from here.
Actually, I want to go to sleep. Heading there now.

Code: Select all

info depth 45 seldepth 61 multipv 1 score cp 0 nodes 19871992182 nps 19023815 hashfull 999 tbhits 0 time 1044585 pv c2a4 a8c6 a4c6 c7c6 c1a3 a5a4 f1a1 g7f8 a3f8 d8f8 g3f3 f8b8 h2g3 h7g7 g3f2 c6d7 a2a4 a6a4 a1a4 d7a4 f3d5 b8b2 d5d6 a4d1 d6e7 g7g8 e7e8 g8g7 e8e7
Black does not change the bishops, of course, but plays Rb8:

[d]br6/2q3bk/r5p1/p2nPp1p/B1pP1P1P/2P3Q1/R3N2K/2B2R2 w - - 0 3

I would be happy, if you give it a shot when able to do so.

The change in score from equal to negative is very, very close...
While I was away, SF decided it prefers Ng1 to Ba4.

Code: Select all

info depth 52 seldepth 86 multipv 1 score cp 28 nodes 500852483894 nps 20999065 hashfull 999 tbhits 0 time 23851180 pv e2g1 c7b7 g1f3 d5c3 f3g5 h7g8 a2b2 b7d5 c2f5 g6f5 g3c3 g7h6 f1g1 a6g6 b2c2 d5d4 c3c4 d4c4 c2c4 h6g5 g1g5 g6g5 f4g5 a8d5 c4d4 d8d7 h2g3 d5c6 d4c4 d7d3 g3f2 c6d5 c4c5 a5a4 c5a5 d5b3 e5e6 b3e6 a5a4 e6d5 c1e3 d3c3 f2e2 c3b3 a4d4 d5e4 d4d6 b3b2 d6d2 b2b3 d2d8 g8f7 d8d6 b3b2 e3d2 b2b3 d2f4 b3b2 d6d2 b2c2 d2c2 e4c2
[D]b2r4/2q3bk/r5p1/p2nPp1p/2pP1P1P/2P3Q1/R1B4K/2B2RN1 b - - 1 2
Well, black continues in the same way: Rb8.

[d]br6/2q3bk/r5p1/p2nPp1p/2pP1P1P/2P3Q1/R1B4K/2B2RN1 w - - 0 3
This is just a transposition.

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