This is where top Engines fail compared to human............

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George
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This is where top Engines fail compared to human............

Post by George » Mon May 25, 2015 3:28 pm

In this position which is currently playing LIVE, Karjakin has a Rook + Bishop and 2 extra pawns to Jakovenko Queen minus 2 pawns, all engines are giving Jakovenko a huge edge , but the position is a dead draw where if played precisely it should end in a DRAW. I believe that the value of the Queen Should be set to 9 in the beginning up to the middle stage, then reduced to 8 once the position enter the endgame stage, or simply to 8.5 throughout the entire game ==>
This was the original position from where if you let Komodo or Stockfish play it out by itself both sides, the position should have ended in a draw, but for some reason every engine was giving the White side with the Queen the edge or advantage :shock:
[D]6k1/1b3p2/p3pPpp/6P1/1p3Q1P/1Pr5/4K3/8 b - - 0 1
This game is still in progress Jakovenko vs Karjakin
==> http://khantymansiysk2015.fide.com/game-analysis-2/

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cdani
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Re: This is where top Engines fail compared to human........

Post by cdani » Mon May 25, 2015 3:57 pm

At last Karjakin has failed like an human...

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AdminX
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Re: This is where top Engines fail compared to human........

Post by AdminX » Mon May 25, 2015 3:58 pm

Hi George,

I enjoyed watching that game. It was the last one to end.

[pgn]

[Event "FIDE GP Khanty-Mansiysk 2015"]
[Site "Khanty-Mansiysk"]
[Date "2015.05.25"]
[Round "10"]
[White "Jakovenko, Dmitry"]
[Black "Karjakin, Sergey"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D45"]
[WhiteElo "2738"]
[BlackElo "2753"]
[PlyCount "128"]
[EventDate "2015.??.??"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. Nc3 c6 5. e3 Nbd7 6. Qc2 Bd6 7. Bd3 O-O 8. O-O
dxc4 9. Bxc4 a6 10. Rd1 b5 11. Bd3 Qc7 12. Bd2 c5 13. Ne4 c4 14. Nxd6 Qxd6 15.
Be2 Bb7 16. b3 Rfc8 17. Qb2 Rab8 18. Rac1 h6 19. Ne5 cxb3 20. axb3 Rxc1 21.
Rxc1 Nxe5 22. dxe5 Qd5 23. f3 Ng4 24. Bb4 Rd8 25. Bd6 Nxe3 26. Rc5 Rxd6 27.
Rxd5 Rxd5 28. Qc3 Nf5 29. Kf2 Rd7 30. g4 Ne7 31. f4 g6 32. h4 Kg7 33. Bd3 Nc6
34. Be4 Ne7 35. Bd3 Nc6 36. f5 b4 37. f6+ Kg8 38. Qc1 Nxe5 39. Be2 Nd3+ 40.
Bxd3 Rxd3 41. Ke2 Rf3 42. g5 Rc3 43. Qf4 Rc8 44. Qd6 Be4 45. gxh6 g5 46. Qxb4
Bf5 47. hxg5 Kh7 48. Qb7 Rc2+ 49. Kd1 Bg6 50. b4 Rc4 51. Qe7 Bh5+ 52. Ke1 Re4+
53. Kf2 Rg4 54. Qc5 Rf4+ 55. Kg3 Rf5 56. Qe3 Bg6 57. Kh4 Rd5 58. Qb6 Bf5 59.
Kg3 Kg6 60. Qa7 Rd3+ 61. Kf4 Rh3 62. Ke5 Rh4 63. Qe7 Rh5 64. Qf8 Rxg5 1-0

[/pgn]
Last edited by AdminX on Mon May 25, 2015 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Robert Flesher
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Re: This is where top Engines fail compared to human........

Post by Robert Flesher » Mon May 25, 2015 3:58 pm

cdani wrote:At last Karjakin has failed like an human...

Hi George, maybe you should run a few matches. White is winning in my tests; with ease.
Last edited by Robert Flesher on Mon May 25, 2015 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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George
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Re: This is where top Engines fail compared to human........

Post by George » Mon May 25, 2015 3:59 pm

cdani wrote:At last Karjakin has failed like an human...
Even in position 63...Rh5?? was a big blunder 63....Re4+ would have probably stii save the DRAW :roll:

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George
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Re: This is where top Engines fail compared to human........

Post by George » Mon May 25, 2015 4:03 pm

Robert Flesher wrote:
cdani wrote:At last Karjakin has failed like an human...

Hi George, maybe you should run a few matches. White is winning in my tests with ease.
I do NOT have to, anybody with the latest Komodo or Stockfish can take this position and let it play both sides and see that it would have ended in a DRAW
==> [D]6k1/1b3p2/p3pPpp/6P1/1p3Q1P/1Pr5/4K3/8 b - - 0 1

kgburcham
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Re: This is where top Engines fail compared to human........

Post by kgburcham » Mon May 25, 2015 4:06 pm

the position is a dead draw where if played precisely it should end in a DRAW.
programs say easy win for white from this position.

[D] 6k1/1b3p2/p3pPpp/6P1/1p3Q1P/1Pr5/4K3/8 b - -

Here is one possible line there are others that win also

1... Rc2+ 2. Ke3 Rc3+ 3. Kd2 Rc8 4. Qd6 Be4 5. Qd7 Rf8
6. Ke3 Bf5 7. gxh6 g5 8. hxg5 a5 9. Qa7 Kh7 10. Qxa5 Kg6
11. Qxb4 Rd8 12. Kf4 Re8 13. Qb5 Rd8 14. Qc5 Re8 15. b4 e5+
16. Qxe5 Rxe5 17. Kxe5 Bd3 18. Kd4 Bb1 19. b5 Bf5 20. b6 *

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George
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Re: This is where top Engines fail compared to human........

Post by George » Mon May 25, 2015 4:22 pm

kgburcham wrote:
the position is a dead draw where if played precisely it should end in a DRAW.
programs say easy win for white from this position.

[D] 6k1/1b3p2/p3pPpp/6P1/1p3Q1P/1Pr5/4K3/8 b - -

Here is one possible line there are others that win also

1... Rc2+ 2. Ke3 Rc3+ 3. Kd2 Rc8 4. Qd6 Be4 5. Qd7 Rf8
6. Ke3 Bf5 7. gxh6 g5 8. hxg5 a5 9. Qa7 Kh7 10. Qxa5 Kg6
11. Qxb4 Rd8 12. Kf4 Re8 13. Qb5 Rd8 14. Qc5 Re8 15. b4 e5+
16. Qxe5 Rxe5 17. Kxe5 Bd3 18. Kd4 Bb1 19. b5 Bf5 20. b6 *
I know that most programs say that it is an easy win, but if you let it play it out at 1 minutes per side like I did, it ended in a DRAW :wink:

PS: if you want to find out, you let it run yourself, since it will teach you NOT to always trust the advanced evaluation of the programs, plus you will learn how to DRAW from this position :wink:
Last edited by George on Mon May 25, 2015 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

kgburcham
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Re: This is where top Engines fail compared to human........

Post by kgburcham » Mon May 25, 2015 4:23 pm

George wrote:
Robert Flesher wrote:
cdani wrote:At last Karjakin has failed like an human...

Hi George, maybe you should run a few matches. White is winning in my tests with ease.
I do NOT have to, anybody with the latest Komodo or Stockfish can take this position and let it play both sides and see that it would have ended in a DRAW
==> [D]6k1/1b3p2/p3pPpp/6P1/1p3Q1P/1Pr5/4K3/8 b - - 0 1
We can play this out if you want to George

kgburcham
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Re: This is where top Engines fail compared to human........

Post by kgburcham » Mon May 25, 2015 4:29 pm

George wrote:
kgburcham wrote:
the position is a dead draw where if played precisely it should end in a DRAW.
programs say easy win for white from this position.

[D] 6k1/1b3p2/p3pPpp/6P1/1p3Q1P/1Pr5/4K3/8 b - -

Here is one possible line there are others that win also

1... Rc2+ 2. Ke3 Rc3+ 3. Kd2 Rc8 4. Qd6 Be4 5. Qd7 Rf8
6. Ke3 Bf5 7. gxh6 g5 8. hxg5 a5 9. Qa7 Kh7 10. Qxa5 Kg6
11. Qxb4 Rd8 12. Kf4 Re8 13. Qb5 Rd8 14. Qc5 Re8 15. b4 e5+
16. Qxe5 Rxe5 17. Kxe5 Bd3 18. Kd4 Bb1 19. b5 Bf5 20. b6 *
I know that most programs say that it is an easy win, but if you let it play it out at 1 minutes per side like I did, it ended in a DRAW :wink:

PS: if you want to find out, you let it run yourself, since it will teach you NOT to always trust the advanced evaluation of the programs, plus you will learn how to DRAW from this position :wink:
George set up the start position and I will take white, then we will see

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