Engine test position KM FIDE GP 2015

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Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6037
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Engine test position KM FIDE GP 2015

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Fri May 29, 2015 6:03 am

Eelco de Groot wrote:
Ferdy wrote:
Eelco de Groot wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:For example, after h6 Bh4 Bb7 f3 SF follows a line like Re8 Bf2 a5 b5 (SF wavers if to play b5, when this is the only obvious good move), e5, and now, SF wants to capture on e5 or play something else, which could still give white some advantage, but d5 instead gives white big advantage:

[d]r2qr1k1/1bpn1pp1/1p1p1n1p/pP1Pp3/2P5/P1Q1PP2/4NBPP/R3KB1R b KQ - 0 6

tremendous bind on c6 here, which even is not a king bind

white is much better here, but my SF still does not understand it; it needs another 5-10 moves/10-20 plies in order to see this, with major help from me.

If it does not see that the above position favours white, how will it see that the initial position favours white, when the above line is probably one of the best main lines for both sides?

And if SF does not see this, how will weaker engines see it?
Just to illustrate the main line from Stockfish after 10. b4 h6 11. Bh4 c5 is with 12. dxc5 but after about depth 26 with multiple lines, Stockfish begins to see something different

depth 25:

25 2:21 -0.13 12.dxc5 bxc5 13.f3 Bb7 14.Rd1 Qc7 15.bxc5 Qxc5 16.Qb4 Qxb4+ 17.axb4 Rfc8 18.Bxf6 gxf6 19.Rd4 Ne5 20.Nf4 Kf8 21.b5 Ke7 22.Be2 a6 23.O-O axb5 24.cxb5 Rc2 25.Rb1 (347.553.037) 2463
25 2:21 -0.33 12.f3 cxd4 13.Nxd4 Rc8 14.b5 Bb7 15.Qb2 Qc7 16.Rc1 d5 17.Bg3 Qc5 18.Qb4 dxc4 19.Qxc5 Nxc5 20.Rxc4 Rfe8 21.Rc2 Nd5 22.Kf2 e5 23.Nc6 Bxc6 24.bxc6 Ne7 (347.553.037) 2463
25 2:21 -0.36 12.Rc1 Qc7 13.f3 Rfe8 14.dxc5 bxc5 15.Bxf6 Nxf6 16.Ng3 Bb7 17.Kf2 cxb4 18.axb4 a5 19.b5 a4 20.Qa3 Nd7 21.Be2 Nc5 22.Rhd1 Red8 23.Kg1 Qb6 24.Kf2 (347.553.037) 2463
25 2:21 -0.49 12.b5 Bb7 13.dxc5 bxc5 14.f3 a6 15.a4 axb5 16.axb5 Qb6 17.Rxa8 Rxa8 18.Bxf6 Nxf6 19.Nc1 d5 20.Be2 dxc4 21.Bxc4 Bd5 22.Kf2 Ra4 23.Bd3 Rb4 24.Rd1 Qc7 25.e4 (347.553.037) 2463

now it changes:

26 3:52 -0.10 12.f3 {!} cxd4 13.Qxd4 Rc8 14.Nc3 d5 15.cxd5 Bxf1 16.Kxf1 Qc7 17.dxe6 Qxc3 18.exd7 Nxd7 19.Qxc3 Rxc3 20.e4 Rfc8 21.Bg3 Rb3 22.h4 Nf6 23.Bd6 Rc2 24.Be7 Nh5 25.Kg1 (570.085.102) 2451
26 3:52 -0.20 12.dxc5 bxc5 13.f3 Bb7 14.Rd1 Qc7 15.bxc5 Qxc5 16.Qb4 Qxb4+ 17.axb4 Rfc8 18.Bxf6 gxf6 19.Rd4 Ne5 20.Nf4 Kf8 21.b5 Ke7 22.Be2 a6 23.O-O axb5 24.cxb5 Rc2 25.Rb1 (570.085.102) 2451
26 3:52 -0.26 12.Rc1 Qc7 13.f3 Rfe8 14.Bg3 e5 15.dxc5 bxc5 16.e4 cxb4 17.axb4 Rac8 18.b5 Bb7 19.Bf2 Nb6 20.Ng3 d5 21.c5 dxe4 22.fxe4 Bxe4 23.Nxe4 Nxe4 24.Qe3 Nxf2 25.Kxf2 (570.085.102) 2451
26 3:52 -0.32 12.a4 Bb7 13.a5 e5 14.bxc5 bxc5 15.Bxf6 Nxf6 16.d5 Ba6 17.Ng3 Rb8 18.Be2 Rb4 19.O-O Qc7 20.Qc2 Rfb8 21.Ra2 Rb3 22.Nf5 R8b4 23.Rd1 Qd7 24.Ng3 Bb7 (570.085.102) 2451


and at depth 32 (and a little earlier) White has at least gained equality here. The difference is only 14 centipawns but if you lose 14 centipawns each move, then it can add up quickly... In practice Stockfish just does not play lines like this or if it has to play b4 from book or whatever, misjudges it.

[D]r2q1rk1/p2n1pp1/bp1ppn1p/2p5/1PPP3B/P1Q1P3/4NPPP/R3KB1R w KQ -

Engine: SfVerification_007E MOD MP (512 MB)
by Tord Romstad, Marco Costalba and Joona Kiiski

32 41:38 -0.01 12.f3 b5 13.dxc5 dxc5 14.cxb5 Bxb5
15.Bxf6 Qxf6 16.Qxf6 gxf6 17.Nf4 Rfb8
18.bxc5 Bxf1 19.Rxf1 Nxc5 20.Kf2 Rb2+
21.Kg1 Rb3 22.Rfc1 Nd3 23.Nxd3 Rxd3
24.e4 Rb8 25.Rc7 (6.234.780.761) 2495
Your 12... b5 is interesting.
:) I don't know why Stockfish does not show the move here, even if the analysis does not go so deep. Later my version switches to 12... Re8 as best reply but the difference levels off a bit. After 12. f3

[D]r2q1rk1/p2n1pp1/bp1ppn1p/2p5/1PPP3B/P1Q1PP2/4N1PP/R3KB1R b KQ -

Engine: SfVerification_007E MOD MP (512 MB)
by Tord Romstad, Marco Costalba and Joona Kiiski

39 254:39 +0.26 12...Re8 13.dxc5 bxc5 14.b5 Bb7
15.a4 d5 16.a5 e5 17.cxd5 e4 18.f4 g5
19.a6 Bxa6 20.bxa6 gxh4 21.Qd2 Nb6
22.Nc3 Nbxd5 23.Bb5 Re6 24.Bc4 Rd6
25.Nxd5 Nxd5 (40.219.436.349) 2632

39 254:39 +0.12 12...Qc7 13.dxc5 bxc5 14.b5 Bb7
15.a4 a6 16.Bxf6 Nxf6 17.a5 axb5
18.cxb5 Nd5 19.Qd2 Nxe3 20.Qxe3 Rxa5
21.Rxa5 Qxa5+ 22.Kf2 Qxb5 23.Nc3 Qa5
24.Nb5 Qb6 25.Bd3 d5 (40.219.436.349) 2632

39 254:39 0.00 12...b5 13.dxc5 dxc5 14.cxb5 Bxb5
15.Bxf6 gxf6 16.Nf4 Bxf1 17.Rxf1 cxb4
18.axb4 Qb6 19.Kf2 Rfc8 20.Qd2 Rc4
21.Nh5 Ne5 22.Nxf6+ Kg7 23.Nh5+ Kg6
24.Kg1 Kxh5 25.Ra5 Rd8 (40.219.436.349) 2632

39 254:39 0.00 12...cxd4 13.Qxd4 Rc8 14.Nc3 Ne5
15.b5 Bb7 16.Be2 Nxc4 17.Bxc4 Qc7
18.Bxf6 gxf6 19.Bd5 Bxd5 20.Nxd5 exd5
21.O-O Rfe8 22.Qxf6 Re6 23.Qd4 Qc5
24.Rfc1 Qxc1+ 25.Rxc1 Rxc1+ (40.219.436.349) 2632

39 254:39 0.00 12...Rc8 13.dxc5 bxc5 14.b5 Bb7
15.Bf2 a6 16.a4 axb5 17.axb5 Ra8
18.Rxa8 Qxa8 19.Ng3 Qa2 20.Be2 Qb1+
21.Kd2 Qa2+ 22.Qc2 Qa5+ 23.Qc3 Qa2+ (40.219.436.349) 2632

__________________________________________________

40 362:37 +0.12 12...Re8 13.dxc5 bxc5 14.b5 Bb7
15.a4 d5 16.a5 e5 17.Qa3 Rc8 18.Rd1 d4
19.a6 Ba8 20.e4 Qb6 21.Bxf6 Qxf6
22.Ng3 h5 23.Be2 h4 24.Nf5 g6
25.Nh6+ Kg7 (58.022.169.768) 2666

40 362:37 +0.12 12...Qc7 13.dxc5 bxc5 14.b5 Bb7
15.a4 a6 16.Bxf6 Nxf6 17.a5 axb5
18.cxb5 Nd5 19.Qd2 Nxe3 20.Qxe3 Rxa5
21.Rxa5 Qxa5+ 22.Kf2 Qxb5 23.Nc3 Qa5
24.Nb5 Qb6 25.Bd3 d5 (58.022.169.768) 2666

40 362:37 0.00 12...b5 13.dxc5 dxc5 14.cxb5 Bxb5
15.Bxf6 Qxf6 16.Qxf6 gxf6 17.Nf4 Bxf1
18.Rxf1 Rfb8 19.bxc5 Nxc5 20.e4 Rb3
21.Kf2 Rab8 22.Rfd1 Kf8 23.Kf1 Kg7
24.Nh5+ Kg6 25.Nf4+ Kg5 (58.022.169.768) 2666

40 362:37 0.00 12...cxd4 13.Qxd4 Qc7 14.Rc1 Rfc8
15.Nc3 d5 16.Bg3 Qd8 17.cxd5 Bxf1
18.Rxf1 Nxd5 19.Kf2 Nxc3 20.Rxc3 Rxc3
21.Qxc3 Rc8 22.Qd2 Nf6 23.Qxd8+ Rxd8
24.Ke2 Rc8 25.Kd2 Rd8+ (58.022.169.768) 2666

40 362:37 0.00 12...Rc8 13.dxc5 bxc5 14.b5 Bb7
15.Bf2 a6 16.a4 axb5 17.axb5 Ra8
18.Rxa8 Qxa8 19.Ng3 Qa2 20.Be2 Qb1+
21.Kd2 Qa2+ 22.Qc2 Qa5+ 23.Qc3 Qa2+ (58.022.169.768) 2666

+0.12 I think just means equality, unless White comes up with a very strong novelty somewhere. Here is just one possible computer line again with 12...Re8

[Event "KM FIDE GP 2015"]
[Site "Khanty-Mansiysk RUS"]
[Date "2015.05.26"]
[Round "11"]
[White "Nakamura, Hi"]
[Black "Jakovenko, D."]
[WhiteElo "2799"]
[BlackElo "2738"]
[ECO "E32"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. Qc2 d6 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. Qxc3
O-O 7. Bg5 Nbd7 8. e3 b6 9. Ne2 Ba6 10. Rd1 (10. b4 h6
11. Bh4 c5 12. f3 Re8 13. dxc5 bxc5 14. b5 Bb7 15. a4 d5
16. a5 e5 17. Qb2 d4 18. e4 Qc7 19. Nc1 Nh5 20. Be2 Nf8
21. Bf2 Ne6 22. O-O Nef4 23. Re1 Nxe2+ 24. Rxe2 Bc8
[D]r1b1r1k1/p1q2pp1/7p/PPp1p2n/2PpP3/5P2/1Q2RBPP/R1N3K1 w - -
{=})
10... h6 11. Bxf6 Nxf6 12. Ng3 c5 13. Be2 Qc7 14. O-O Rac8
15. Rc1 cxd4 16. Qxd4 Rfd8 17. Qd2 Qb8 18. Rfd1 d5 19. cxd5
Rxd5 20. Qe1 Rxc1 21. Rxc1 Bxe2 22. Qxe2 Qd8 23. h3 Rd3
24. Nh5 Nxh5 25. Qxh5 Rd2 26. Qe5 Rxf2 27. Kxf2 Qd2+
28. Kf3 Qxc1 29. Qb8+ Kh7 30. Qxa7 Qf1+ 31. Kg3 Qe1+
32. Kh2 Qxe3 33. Qxf7 b5 34. Qd7 Qf4+ 35. Kg1 Qc1+ 36. Kh2
Qf4+ 37. Kg1 Qc4 38. Qd1 1/2-1/2
Analysis position after b4 h6 Bh4 c5 f3.
[d]r2q1rk1/p2n1pp1/bp1ppn1p/2p5/1PPP3B/P1Q1PP2/4N1PP/R3KB1R b KQ - 0 12
SF:

Code: Select all

Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2600K CPU @ 3.40GHz
Physical cores: 4, Logical cores: 4

id name Stockfish 210515 64 POPCNT
Hash: 1024, Threads: 1, MultiPV: 2, AllocTime: 10.0m

FEN: r2q1rk1/p2n1pp1/bp1ppn1p/2p5/1PPP3B/P1Q1PP2/4N1PP/R3KB1R b KQ - 0 12

  +0.24/28  0h:09m:43s:534ms   12... cxd4 13. Nxd4 Ne5 14. b5 Bb7 15. Be2 Ne4 16. Bxd8 Nxc3 
  +0.16/28  0h:09m:43s:534ms   12... Bb7 13. Qd2 a5 14. bxc5 dxc5 15. dxc5 Nxc5 16. Qxd8 Rfxd8 

  +0.26/27  0h:07m:43s:044ms   12... cxd4 13. Nxd4 Ne5 14. b5 Bb7 15. Be2 Ne4 16. Bxd8 Nxc3 
  +0.00/27  0h:08m:17s:171ms   12... Rc8 13. dxc5 bxc5 14. b5 Bb7 15. a4 d5 16. a5 dxc4 

  +0.26/26  0h:03m:05s:516ms   12... cxd4 13. Nxd4 Ne5 14. b5 Bb7 15. Be2 Ne4 16. Bxd8 Nxc3 
  +0.25/26  0h:03m:28s:174ms   12... Re8 13. dxc5 bxc5 14. b5 Bb7 15. a4 d5 16. a5 Rc8 
Deuterium:

Code: Select all

Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2600K CPU @ 3.40GHz
Physical cores: 4, Logical cores: 4

id name Deuterium v2015.1.35.169
Hash: 1024, Threads: 1, MultiPV: 2, AllocTime: 10.0m

FEN: r2q1rk1/p2n1pp1/bp1ppn1p/2p5/1PPP3B/P1Q1PP2/4N1PP/R3KB1R b KQ - 0 12

  +0.44/23  0h:09m:27s:104ms   12... Rc8 13. dxc5 bxc5 14. b5 Bb7 15. O-O-O d5 16. Qb2 Qe7 
  +0.11/23  0h:11m:28s:325ms   12... cxd4 13. Nxd4 Rc8 14. b5 Bb7 15. Qb4 Ne5 16. Qa4 Qc7 

  +0.49/22  0h:06m:49s:647ms   12... Rc8 13. dxc5 bxc5 14. b5 Bb7 15. O-O-O d5 16. Qb2 Qe7 
  +0.21/22  0h:07m:49s:764ms   12... cxd4 13. Nxd4 Rc8 14. b5 Bb7 15. Qb4 Ne5 16. Qa4 Qc7 

  +0.41/21  0h:05m:13s:781ms   12... Rc8 13. dxc5 bxc5 14. b5 Bb7 15. O-O-O d5 16. Qb2 Qe7 
  +0.10/21  0h:06m:00s:006ms   12... cxd4 13. Nxd4 Rc8 14. b5 Bb7 15. Qb4 Ne5 16. Qa4 Qc7 

  +0.38/20  0h:02m:00s:349ms   12... Re8 13. dxc5 bxc5 14. b5 Bb7 15. O-O-O d5 16. Qb2 Nb6 
  +0.30/20  0h:03m:33s:150ms   12... Rc8 13. dxc5 bxc5 14. b5 Bb7 15. Bxf6 Nxf6 16. Ng3 d5 

  +0.44/19  0h:01m:19s:665ms   12... Re8 13. dxc5 bxc5 14. b5 Bb7 15. Qb2 d5 16. O-O-O a6 
  +0.24/19  0h:01m:31s:175ms   12... cxd4 13. Nxd4 Rc8 14. Qb3 Qc7 15. b5 Bb7 16. Qa4 Ne5 
In your main line, I am ok with moves until 19, but on move 20 Be2 is unnecessary, white simply plays g4 Nf4 Nd3, with advantage, though probably not winning.

[d]r3r1k1/pbqn1pp1/7p/PPp1p3/2PpPnPB/3N1P2/1Q5P/R3KB1R b KQ - 0 10

it is only white that could have advantage above, white will get rid of the f4 knight after Bg3, Qd2, place a bishop on d3 that blocks the entire center, extend on the king side, never push a6, but wait on the queen side, thus the queen side will remain the only spot that is open for possible breaks, and white has the advantage there; the center, where black has the advantage, is blocked.

Probably still a draw, but no selfrespecting player will let black get easily off the hook.

whereagles
Posts: 558
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:03 am

Re: Engine test position KM FIDE GP 2015

Post by whereagles » Fri May 29, 2015 7:55 am

Agree. White is better, but black should have enough space to swing pieces back and forth and put out all the fires.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6037
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Engine test position KM FIDE GP 2015

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Fri May 29, 2015 8:49 am

Ferdy wrote:Another game.
Caruana - Tomashevsky, black here played 8... Na6, after the sacrifice 8. g4.
[d]rnbqk2r/1p2bppp/2p1pn2/p2p4/P1PP1BP1/2N1PN2/1P3P1P/R2QKB1R b KQkq - 0 8
Deuterium:

Code: Select all

Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2600K CPU @ 3.40GHz
Cores: Physical = 4, Logical = 8
Physical Memory: Total = 12 GB, Available =  9 GB

id name Deuterium v2015.1.35.169
Hash: 256 MB, Threads: 1, MultiPV: 3, AllocTime: 5.0m

FEN: rnbqk2r/1p2bppp/2p1pn2/p2p4/P1PP1BP1/2N1PN2/1P3P1P/R2QKB1R b KQkq - 0 8

  +0.03/21  0h:05m:51s:439ms   8... O-O 9. h3 Na6 10. g5 Nd7 11. h4 Nb4 
  -0.21/21  0h:07m:59s:561ms   8... dxc4 9. Bxc4 Nd5 10. Bg3 O-O 11. O-O Nd7 
  -0.23/21  0h:08m:25s:487ms   8... Nbd7 9. h3 O-O 10. Qc2 dxc4 11. Bxc4 Nd5 

  +0.07/20  0h:02m:34s:277ms   8... O-O 9. h3 Na6 10. g5 Ne4 11. h4 Qb6 
  -0.19/20  0h:03m:57s:624ms   8... dxc4 9. Bxc4 O-O 10. h3 Nd5 11. Bg3 Na6 
  -0.27/20  0h:04m:58s:515ms   8... Nbd7 9. h3 dxc4 10. Bxc4 Nb6 11. Bd3 Nfd5 
Stockfish:

Code: Select all

Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2600K CPU @ 3.40GHz
Cores: Physical = 4, Logical = 8
Physical Memory: Total = 12 GB, Available = 9 GB

id name Stockfish 210515 64 POPCNT
Hash: 256 MB, Threads: 1, MultiPV: 3, AllocTime: 5.0m

FEN: rnbqk2r/1p2bppp/2p1pn2/p2p4/P1PP1BP1/2N1PN2/1P3P1P/R2QKB1R b KQkq - 0 8

  -0.08/26  0h:03m:54s:466ms   8... Na6 9. g5 Nh5 10. Be5 O-O 11. Rg1 Nb4 
  -0.12/26  0h:04m:42s:796ms   8... dxc4 9. Bxc4 O-O 10. h3 b6 11. O-O Bb7 
  -0.13/26  0h:04m:53s:341ms   8... Nbd7 9. g5 Nh5 10. Be5 O-O 11. h4 b6 

  -0.09/25  0h:02m:00s:829ms   8... Nbd7 9. g5 Nh5 10. Be5 O-O 11. h4 b6 
  -0.13/25  0h:03m:06s:919ms   8... O-O 9. g5 
  -0.17/25  0h:02m:34s:252ms   8... Na6 9. g5 Nh5 10. Be5 O-O 11. Rg1 g6 

  -0.06/24  0h:01m:39s:074ms   8... Nbd7 9. g5 Nh5 10. Be5 O-O 11. h4 b6 
  -0.14/24  0h:01m:50s:014ms   8... O-O 9. g5 Nh5 10. Bxb8 Rxb8 11. h4 g6 
  -0.17/24  0h:01m:54s:782ms   8... Na6 9. g5 Nh5 10. Be5 O-O 11. h4 Nb4 

  -0.07/23  0h:01m:01s:910ms   8... O-O 9. g5 
  -0.10/23  0h:00m:51s:180ms   8... Nbd7 9. g5 Nh5 10. Be5 O-O 11. h4 b6 
  -0.13/23  0h:01m:07s:955ms   8... h6 9. Rg1 Bb4 10. Qc2 g5 11. Be5 Nbd7 
The game score:
[pgn]
[Event "KM FIDE GP 2015"]
[Site "Khanty-Mansiysk RUS"]
[Date "2015.05.16"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Caruana, F."]
[Black "Tomashevsky, E."]
[Result "1-0"]
[Annotator "Ramriez Alvarez,Alejandro"]
[BlackElo "2749"]
[ECO "D15"]
[EventDate "2015.05.13"]
[WhiteElo "2803"]

1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 a6 5.a4 e6 6.Bf4 a5 7.e3 Be7 8.g4 Na6 9.g5 Nd7 10.h4 Nb4 11.Be2 b6 12.h5 Bb7 13.cxd5 exd5 14.Qd2 f5 15.gxf6 Bxf6 16.h6 g6 17.e4 dxe4 18.Nxe4 O-O 19.O-O-O Nd5 20.Bg3 Ba6 21.Bxa6 Rxa6 22.Rhe1 Ra8 23.Kb1 Be7 24.Qd3 Rf5 25.Ne5 Qc8 26.Nc3 Nxc3+ 27.Qxc3 Nxe5 28.Qb3+ Rf7 29.dxe5 Qf5+ 30.Ka2 Bb4 31.e6 Re7 32.Bh4 Ree8 33.e7+ Qf7 34.Re6 b5 35.Rd8 bxa4 36.Qe3 Bxe7 37.Rxa8 Rxa8 38.Bxe7 Re8 39.Ka1 a3 40.bxa3 Qf5 41.Qc3 1-0
[/pgn]
theory or not, black plays a6 on the 4th move, than a5 on the 6th, losing one tempo; also stays with a bad c8 bishop. I think on your diagrammed position white has much more substantial advantage than the couple of centipawns engines give, I would say 30-40cps, something like that.

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