"I'll build a fortress around my heart..."

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whereagles
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"I'll build a fortress around my heart..."

Post by whereagles » Sat Aug 22, 2015 6:19 am

Hi all,

In the newly-started TCEC 8, game Jonny-Komodo, the following position was reached, with engines evaluating as advantage to black, at around -3:

[d]8/2p2k1p/3pR2P/p2P4/P1B4q/1P6/2K5/8 b - - 8 45[/d]

There was some speculation among the audience about whether this was a fortress for white. Seems like c6 is the only breakthrough possible.

In practice, after some piece shuffling Jonny, apparently seeing the c6 impossibility of avoiding c6, exchanged d5 for h7 and lost pretty quickly afterwards.

I argued that white bishop at c6 might perhaps hold the position, even if at expense of b3 pawn, i.e.

[d]8/2p2k1p/2BpR2P/p2P4/P6q/1K6/8/8 b - - 8 45[/d]

Could this offer a better chance? Can it be reached from the game's actual position?

What do you think of both positions?

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cdani
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Re: "I'll build a fortress around my heart..."

Post by cdani » Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:02 am

The proposed position is easy lost because of the idea Qxc6.

jpqy
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Re: "I'll build a fortress around my heart..."

Post by jpqy » Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:21 am

In the first position..when will you play c6?!
I just suffle around with my King

I tried a few times with Komodo 9.2
When i forced c6 be played ,i just take the pawn..my bishop is still proteced by a pawn ,and bishop keeps a eye on my rook.
From the moment c6 is taken ,engine gives 0.00

I would like see the line where black wins..maybe i overlook something?

It was a very nice game to follow..and interesting to study this endgame!

JP.

zullil
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Re: "I'll build a fortress around my heart..."

Post by zullil » Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:29 am

jpqy wrote:In the first position..when will you play c6?!
I just suffle around with my King

I tried a few times with Komodo 9.2
When i forced c6 be played ,i just take the pawn..my bishop is still proteced by a pawn ,and bishop keeps a eye on my rook.
From the moment c6 is taken ,engine gives 0.00

I would like see the line where black wins..maybe i overlook something?

It was a very nice game to follow..and interesting to study this endgame!

JP.
Stockfish shows no progress, after a long search with 6-man endgame tables. So this seems to be a fortress position.

Code: Select all

info depth 50 seldepth 87 multipv 1 score cp 360 nodes 152399434760 nps 40301957 hashfull 999 tbhits 232656468 time 3781440 pv h4d4 c2c1 d4c3 c1d1 c3f3 d1d2 f7f8 d2e1 f3f5 e6e3 f5f6 e3e6 f6f3 e1d2 f3f5 d2e2 c7c6 e6e3 f5c2 e2e1 c6d5 c4d5 c2c5 e3d3 c5c1 e1f2 c1h6 d5g2 h6h4 f2e2 h4h5 d3f3 f8e7 g2h3 d6d5 e2e3 e7d6 e3f2 h5e5 h3f1 h7h5 f3e3 e5f4 f2e2 f4f5 e3f3 f5e5 e2f2 e5d4 f2e2 d4b2 e2e1 h5h4 f3d3 b2h2 d3e3 h2g1 e3h3 d5d4 h3f3 g1h2 f3d3 h2e5 e1f2 e5f4 f2e2 d6e5 d3f3 f4e4 e2f2 e4g4 f3h3
info depth 51 currmove h4d4 currmovenumber 1
info depth 51 currmove h4f2 currmovenumber 5
info depth 51 seldepth 87 multipv 1 score cp 360 nodes 159806055554 nps 40274688 hashfull 999 tbhits 247970827 time 3967903 pv h4d4 c2c1 d4c3 c1d1 c3f3 d1d2 f7f8 d2e1 f3f5 e6e3 f5f6 e3e6 f6f3 e1d2 f3f5 d2e2 c7c6 e6e3 f5c2 e2e1 c6d5 c4d5 c2c5 e3d3 c5c1 e1f2 c1h6 d5g2 h6h4 f2e2 h4h5 d3f3 f8e7 g2h3 d6d5 e2e3 e7d6 e3f2 h5e5 h3f1 h7h5 f3e3 e5f4 f2e2 f4f5 e3f3 f5e5 e2f2 e5d4 f2e2 d4b2 e2e1 h5h4 f3d3 b2h2 d3e3 h2g1 e3h3 d5d4 h3f3 g1h2 f3d3 h2e5 e1f2 e5f4 f2e2 d6e5 d3f3 f4e4 e2f2 e4c2 f1e2
info depth 52 currmove h4d4 currmovenumber 1
info depth 52 currmove h4g3 currmovenumber 3
info depth 52 currmove h4f6 currmovenumber 12
info depth 52 currmove h4e4 currmovenumber 13
info depth 52 currmove h4e7 currmovenumber 14
info depth 52 currmove f7f8 currmovenumber 15
info depth 52 currmove h4h2 currmovenumber 16
info depth 52 currmove c7c6 currmovenumber 17
info depth 52 currmove f7g8 currmovenumber 18
info depth 52 currmove h4d8 currmovenumber 19
info depth 52 currmove h4c4 currmovenumber 20
info depth 52 currmove h4h6 currmovenumber 21
info depth 52 seldepth 87 multipv 1 score cp 360 nodes 167081487984 nps 40239955 hashfull 999 tbhits 256950773 time 4152129 pv h4d4 c2c1 d4c3 c1d1 c3f3 d1d2 f7f8 d2e1 f3f5 e6e3 f5f6 e3e6 f6f3 e1d2 f3f5 d2e2 c7c6 e6e3 f5c2 e2e1 c6d5 c4d5 c2c5 e3d3 c5c1 e1f2 c1h6 d5g2 h6h4 f2e2 h4h5 d3f3 f8e7 g2h3 d6d5 e2e3 e7d6 e3f2 h5e5 h3f1 h7h5 f3e3 e5f4 f2e2 f4f5 e3f3 f5e5 e2f2 e5d4 f2e2 d4b2 e2e1 h5h4 f3d3 b2h2 d3e3 h2g1 e3h3 d5d4 h3f3 g1h2 f3d3 h2e5 e1f2 e5f4 d3f3 f4h2 f2e1 h2g1 e1e2 d6e5
info depth 53 currmove h4d4 currmovenumber 1
info depth 53 currmove c7c5 currmovenumber 4
info depth 53 currmove h4h6 currmovenumber 21
info depth 53 seldepth 91 multipv 1 score cp 360 nodes 203610787788 nps 40392682 hashfull 999 tbhits 299091560 time 5040784 pv h4d4 c2c1 d4c3 c1d1 c3f3 d1d2 f7f8 d2e1 f3f5 e6e3 f5f6 e3e6 f6f3 e1d2 f3f5 d2e2 c7c6 e6e3 f5c2 e2e1 c6d5 c4d5 c2c5 e3d3 c5c1 e1f2 c1h6 d5g2 h6h4 f2e2 h4h5 d3f3 f8e7 g2h3 d6d5 e2e3 e7d6 e3f2 h5e5 h3f1 h7h5 f3e3 e5f4 f2e2 d5d4 e3h3 f4f5 h3f3 f5e5 e2f2 e5h2 f2e1 h2h4 e1e2 d6e5 f3d3 h4g4 e2f2 g4f4 f2e2 f4h2 e2e1 h2c2 d3h3 h5h4 f1c4 d4d3 h3d3 c2g2 d3e3 e5f4 e3e7 g2g1 e1e2 h4h3
info depth 54 currmove h4d4 currmovenumber 1
info depth 54 currmove h4f4 currmovenumber 6
info depth 54 seldepth 91 multipv 1 score cp 360 nodes 222739276541 nps 40447858 hashfull 999 tbhits 332968636 time 5506825 pv h4d4 c2c1 d4c3 c1d1 c3f3 d1d2 f7f8 d2e1 f3f5 e6e3 f5f6 e3e6 f6f3 e1d2 f3f5 d2e2 c7c6 e6e3 f5c2 e2e1 c6d5 c4d5 c2c5 e3d3 c5c1 e1f2 c1h6 d5g2 h6h4 f2e2 h4h5 d3f3 f8e7 g2h3 d6d5 e2e3 e7d6 e3f2 h5e5 h3f1 h7h5 f3e3 e5f4 f2e2 d5d4 e3h3 f4f5 h3f3 f5e5 e2f2 e5h2 f2e1 h2h4 e1e2 d6e5 f3d3 h4g4 e2f2 g4f4 f2e2 f4h2 e2e1 h2c2 d3h3 c2f5 e1e2 e5e6 h3f3 f5e5 e2f2 e5h2 f2e1 e6d6 f3h3 h2f4 f1e2
info depth 55 currmove h4d4 currmovenumber 1
info depth 55 currmove h4g5 currmovenumber 3
info depth 55 currmove h4f2 currmovenumber 8
info depth 55 seldepth 91 multipv 1 score cp 360 nodes 250751479348 nps 40508417 hashfull 999 tbhits 383584577 time 6190108 pv h4d4 c2c1 d4c3 c1d1 c3f3 d1d2 f7f8 d2e1 f3f5 e6e3 f5f6 e3e6 f6f3 e1d2 f3f5 d2e2 c7c6 e6e3 f5c2 e2e1 c6d5 c4d5 c2c5 e3d3 c5c1 e1f2 c1h6 d5g2 h6h4 f2e2 h4h5 d3f3 f8e7 g2h3 d6d5 h3f1 e7d6 e2f2 h5h4 f2e2 h7h5 f3h3 h4f4 h3f3 f4h2 e2e1 h2h4 e1e2 d5d4 f3h3 h4f4 h3f3 f4h2 e2e1 h2h4 e1e2 d6e5 f3d3 h4g4 e2f2 g4f4 f2e2 f4h2 e2e1 h2c2 d3h3 c2f5 e1e2 e5d5 f1g2 d5e6 g2f1 e6e5 e2e1 e5e6 h3d3 f5e5 e1f2

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michiguel
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Re: "I'll build a fortress around my heart..."

Post by michiguel » Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:37 pm

Did it start already? argghh.. I already missed a Gaviota game.

Miguel

EvgeniyZh
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Re: "I'll build a fortress around my heart..."

Post by EvgeniyZh » Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:20 pm

jpqy wrote:In the first position..when will you play c6?!
I just suffle around with my King

I tried a few times with Komodo 9.2
When i forced c6 be played ,i just take the pawn..my bishop is still proteced by a pawn ,and bishop keeps a eye on my rook.
From the moment c6 is taken ,engine gives 0.00

I would like see the line where black wins..maybe i overlook something?

It was a very nice game to follow..and interesting to study this endgame!

JP.
You may try Aquarium IDEA with adding c6 as thematic move, it might find something if you help it properly. :wink:

bob
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Re: "I'll build a fortress around my heart..."

Post by bob » Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:43 pm

cdani wrote:The proposed position is easy lost because of the idea Qxc6.
How do you get the queen to a position where it can take on c6 while white just sits? You retreat to the back rank, white king is going up board to defend rook, or go to b5 where qxc6 is not just a silly sac, etc.

Don't see any way to break through here, unless the queen can sac itself for both pieces and even then it is not clear as white is going to have a passed a pawn real soon.

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cdani
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Re: "I'll build a fortress around my heart..."

Post by cdani » Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:52 pm

bob wrote:
cdani wrote:The proposed position is easy lost because of the idea Qxc6.
How do you get the queen to a position where it can take on c6 while white just sits? You retreat to the back rank, white king is going up board to defend rook, or go to b5 where qxc6 is not just a silly sac, etc.

Don't see any way to break through here, unless the queen can sac itself for both pieces and even then it is not clear as white is going to have a passed a pawn real soon.
I tried with Stockfish to reach the idea of Nuno Sousa, the one that gives b3 to reach c6 with the bishop. Then black queen just takes c6 and the rook on e6 is taked with the king, wining the endgame.

whereagles
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Re: "I'll build a fortress around my heart..."

Post by whereagles » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:12 am

Indeed. Position 2 is probably winning even with b3.

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