TalkChess.com

Posted: **Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:09 pm**

[d] k6n/7R/6n1/8/3K4/8/3r3P/8 w - - 0 1
Can white hold the draw here or not?
1. Ke3 Rd8 2. Ke4 Re8+ 3. Kf5 Rf8+ 4. Ke4 Nf7 5. Kf5 Nfe5+ 6. Ke6 Nf3 7. Rh6 Nf4+ 8. Ke7 Rf5 9. Rh7 Re5+ 10. Kd7 Rc5 11. Kd6 Rd5+ 12. Ke7 Kb7 13. Rf7 Rd4 14. h3 Kc7 15. Ke8+ Kc6 16. Ra7
[d] 4K3/R7/2k5/8/3r1n2/5n1P/8/8 b - - 4 16
In this example black can now win in 20 moves with Nxh3.

Posted: **Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:38 pm**

No. Black mates in 30 moves according to the Lomonosov tablebases.

Posted: **Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:44 pm**

After 3'50" it is already -6.00. So that does not look like a possible draw to me, even without tablebases installed.

[D]k6n/7R/6n1/8/3K4/8/3r3P/8 w - -

Engine: Sf20150607_036 MOD MP (512 MB)
by Tord Romstad, Marco Costalba and Joona Kiiski
.
.
.
20/41 0:06 -5.38 1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+
4.Ke4 Nf7 5.h4 Kb8 6.Kd4 Rd8+ 7.Ke3 Re8+
8.Kf2 Nge5 9.h5 Kb7 10.Kg3 Kc6
11.Kf4 Nd3+ 12.Kf5 Nd6+ 13.Kg4 Ne5+
14.Kf4 (19.846.911) 3222

21/41 0:07 -5.39 1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+
4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rd7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Nd8+
8.Ke5 Ne3 9.Rh7 Re8+ 10.Kd6 Nb7+
11.Kd7 Rd8+ 12.Ke7 Rd6 13.h4 Nd5+
14.Kf8 (25.246.961) 3325

22/43 0:08 -5.39 1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+
4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rd7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Nd8+
8.Ke5 Ne3 9.Rh7 Re8+ 10.Kd6 Nb7+
11.Kd7 Rd8+ 12.Ke6 Nc5+ 13.Ke5 Nc4+
14.Kf6 (26.990.426) 3285

23/50 0:14 -5.51-- 1.Ke3 Rd8 (46.281.372) 3194

23/50 0:16 -5.52 1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+
4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rd7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Nd8+
8.Ke5 Ne3 9.Rh7 Re8+ 10.Kd6 Nb7+
11.Kd7 Rd8+ 12.Ke6 Nc5+ 13.Ke5 Re8+
14.Kd4 (55.016.763) 3265

24/54 0:27 -5.64 1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+
4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rg7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Nd6+
8.Ke6 Nf5 9.Rh7 Nfe3 10.Kd6 Nf6
11.Rh3 Nfg4 12.Kc7 Ka7 13.Rh5 Ka6
14.h4 (95.023.673) 3491

25/54 0:32 -5.65 1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+
4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rd7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Nd8+
8.Ke5 Ne3 9.Rh7 Re8+ 10.Kd6 Nb7+
11.Kd7 Rd8+ 12.Ke6 Nc5+ 13.Ke5 Re8+
14.Kd4 (117.670.333) 3612

26/54 0:40 -5.66 1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+
4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rd7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Nd8+
8.Ke5 Ne3 9.Rh7 Re8+ 10.Kd6 Nb7+
11.Kd7 Rd8+ 12.Ke6 Nc5+ 13.Ke5 Re8+
14.Kd4 (149.144.933) 3706

27/55 0:56 -5.75 1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+
4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rg7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Nd6+
8.Ke6 Nf5 9.Rh7 Nfe3 10.Ke5 Re8+
11.Kd4 Nf6 12.Rf7 Nf5+ 13.Kd3 Re3+
14.Kc2 (218.102.095) 3852

28/55 1:24 -5.86 1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+
4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rg7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Nd6+
8.Ke6 Nf5 9.Rh7 Nfe3 10.Kd6 Nf6
11.Rh3 Nfg4 12.Kc7 Ka7 13.Rh5 Ka6
14.h4 (336.392.038) 3979

29/60 2:06 -5.89 1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+
4.Ke4 Nf7 5.Kf5 Nfe5+ 6.Ke6 Rf2
7.Kd5 Nf7 8.Rg7 Nf4+ 9.Kd4 Ne6+
10.Ke3 Rf6 11.Rg4 Kb7 12.h4 Ne5
13.Rg1 Nc4+ 14.Kd3 (508.702.116) 4031

30/60 3:00 -5.99 1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+
4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rg7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Nd6+
8.Ke6 Nf5 9.Rh7 Nfe3 10.Kd6 Nf6
11.Rh3 Nfg4 12.Kc7 Ka7 13.Rh5 Ka6
14.h4 (737.689.667) 4089

31/62 3:50 -6.01 1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+
4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rg7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Nd6+
8.Ke6 Nf5 9.Rh7 Nfe3 10.Kd6 Nf6
11.Rh3 Nfg4 12.Rh7 Kb8 13.Rh5 Nf5+
14.Ke6 (950.207.658) 4124

32/63 6:13 -6.11 1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+
4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rg7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Nd6+
8.Ke6 Nf5 9.Rh7 Nfe3 10.Kd6 Nf6
11.Rh3 Nfg4 12.Rh7 Kb8 13.Rh3 Kb7
14.Kc5 (1.564.240.329) 4192

best move: Kd4-e3 time: 6:44.900 min n/s: 4.192.077 nodes: 1.692.811.889

Posted: **Fri Aug 28, 2015 2:11 am**

Jack Lad wrote:[d] k6n/7R/6n1/8/3K4/8/3r3P/8 w - - 0 1
Can white hold the draw here or not?
1. Ke3 Rd8 2. Ke4 Re8+ 3. Kf5 Rf8+ 4. Ke4 Nf7 5. Kf5 Nfe5+ 6. Ke6 Nf3 7. Rh6 Nf4+ 8. Ke7 Rf5 9. Rh7 Re5+ 10. Kd7 Rc5 11. Kd6 Rd5+ 12. Ke7 Kb7 13. Rf7 Rd4 14. h3 Kc7 15. Ke8+ Kc6 16. Ra7
[d] 4K3/R7/2k5/8/3r1n2/5n1P/8/8 b - - 4 16
In this example black can now win in 20 moves with Nxh3.

I let Crafty run for 10 minutes at 100M nodes per second. Stopped at almost -8.00. One interesting test is to remove the rooks, since this is a KNNKP type ending, and sure enough, it appears that if rooks are traded, this is a win for black because of the poor white h pawn location.

I'd suspect it is won for black based on these results...

Posted: **Fri Aug 28, 2015 9:07 am**

At depth 40, SF gives a <120 score, that means the position is lost for white :

FEN: k6n/7R/6n1/8/3K4/8/3r3P/8 w - - 0 1

Code: Select all

Stockfish_15081720_x64_modern&#58;
...
 22/42	00&#58;00	 5.635k	7.635k	-5,60	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+ 4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rg7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Nd6+ 8.Ke6 Nf5 9.Rh7 Nf4+ 10.Ke5 Ng6+ 11.Ke4 Nd6+ 12.Kd5 Rd8 13.Kd4 Re8 14.Kc3 Ne5 15.h4 Ndf7 16.Kd2 Kb7 17.Ke2 Kc6 18.Ke3
 23/42	00&#58;02	 21.950k	9.594k	-5,68	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+ 4.Kg5 Nf4 5.h4 Ne6+ 6.Kg4 Nf7 7.Rh5 Kb7 8.Kg3 Nd6 9.Re5 Nf5+ 10.Kg4 Nfd4 11.Kg3 Rf3+ 12.Kg4 Rf4+ 13.Kh3 Kc6 14.h5 Kd6 15.Re1 Nf5 16.Kg2
 24/42-	00&#58;03	 31.091k	9.668k	-5,74	1.Ke3 Rd8
 24/42-	00&#58;04	 42.224k	10.229k	-5,81	1.Ke3 Rd8
 24/42	00&#58;04	 51.389k	10.563k	-5,82	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+ 4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rh7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Nh6+ 8.Ke6 Ng4 9.Kd6 Nde3 10.Kc5 Rc8+ 11.Kb6 Nc4+ 12.Ka6 Nd6 13.h4 Nf6 14.Rh6 Rc6+ 15.Ka5 Kb8 16.Rg6 Nf5
 25/42-	00&#58;05	 65.113k	10.930k	-5,89	1.Ke3 Rd8
 25/42	00&#58;07	 78.866k	11.182k	-5,90	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+ 4.Kg5 Nf4 5.h4 Ne6+ 6.Kg4 Nf7 7.Rh5 Kb7 8.Ra5 Kb6 9.Rh5 Ra8 10.Rh7 Nd6 11.Rh6 Ra4+ 12.Kh5 Nf4+ 13.Kg5 Kc5 14.Rh7 Kd5 15.Kf6 Ra8 16.h5 Ne4+ 17.Kg7 Ke5
 26/42-	00&#58;08	 96.243k	11.443k	-5,96	1.Ke3 Rd8
 26/42-	00&#58;10	 118.427k	11.675k	-6,03	1.Ke3 Rd8
 26/43+	00&#58;11	 133.302k	11.771k	-5,96	1.Ke3
 26/43-	00&#58;12	 143.008k	11.853k	-6,04	1.Ke3 Rd8
 26/48	00&#58;13	 160.481k	11.959k	-6,06	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+ 4.Kg5 Nf4 5.h4 Ne6+ 6.Kg4 Nf7 7.Rh5 Kb7 8.Ra5 Kb6 9.Rh5 Ra8 10.Rh7 Nd6 11.Rh6 Ra4+ 12.Kh3 Nf4+ 13.Kg3 Kc5 14.Rh7 Nd3 15.Rh5+ Kd4 16.Rh8 Ke4 17.Rb8 Ra1 18.h5 Nf5+ 19.Kg4 Rg1+ 20.Kh3
 27/48-	00&#58;14	 179.548k	12.035k	-6,12	1.Ke3 Rd8
 27/48	00&#58;16	 206.017k	12.129k	-6,15	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+ 4.Ke6 Rf2 5.Rh6 Nf8+ 6.Kd5 Nf7 7.Rh5 Ng6 8.Kc5 Kb7 9.Rh3 Rd2 10.Rh7 Nge5 11.Rh5 Rd8 12.Rh7 Nd3+ 13.Kb5 Rd7 14.Ka4 Nde5 15.Rh3 Kc6 16.Rc3+ Kd5 17.h4
 28/48-	00&#58;19	 243.701k	12.250k	-6,21	1.Ke3 Rd8
 28/50	00&#58;23	 287.875k	12.377k	-6,27	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+ 4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Re7 Nd5 6.Rg7 Nf7+ 7.Kf5 Ne3+ 8.Ke6 Nd6 9.Rc7 Ndf5 10.Rh7 Re8+ 11.Kf6 Nd6 12.Kg6 Rg8+ 13.Kf6 Ng4+ 14.Ke7 Nf5+ 15.Ke6 Nfh6 16.h4 Rg6+ 17.Ke7 Nf5+ 18.Kd8 Ne5 19.Rh5 Rf6 20.Kc8 Ka7 21.Rh7+ Kb6
 29/50-	00&#58;26	 334.086k	12.517k	-6,33	1.Ke3 Rd8
 29/50-	00&#58;30	 384.040k	12.630k	-6,39	1.Ke3 Rd8
 29/54-	00&#58;39	 507.816k	12.783k	-6,63	1.Ke3 Rd8
 29/54+	00&#58;40	 519.046k	12.778k	-6,52	1.Ke3
 29/54	00&#58;40	 520.682k	12.780k	-6,63	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kf5 Rf8+ 4.Kg5 Nf4 5.Rh4 Ne6+ 6.Kg4 Nf7 7.Rh5 Nd6 8.Ra5+ Kb7 9.Ra4 Rg8+ 10.Kf3 Rh8 11.Ra2 Rh4 12.Kg2 Nf5 13.Rb2+ Kc6 14.Rb8 Nf4+ 15.Kg1 Nd5 16.Rc8+ Kd7 17.Rc5 Nde3 18.Ra5 Kc6 19.Ra6+ Kb5 20.Ra8 Rf4 21.Ra1 Rh4 22.Rc1 Rg4+ 23.Kh1
 30/54+	00&#58;40	 523.120k	12.780k	-6,56	1.Ke3
 30/54-	00&#58;41	 524.965k	12.774k	-6,63	1.Ke3 Rd8
 30/55-	00&#58;44	 576.085k	12.895k	-6,72	1.Ke3 Rd8
 30/55	00&#58;45	 588.821k	12.901k	-6,72	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kd4 Ne5 4.Rh5 Nhf7 5.Kc5 Kb7 6.Kb5 Rd8 7.Kc5 Rb8 8.Rh7 Re8 9.Kb5 Rc8 10.Kb4 Kc6 11.h3 Rd8 12.Kc3 Kd5 13.Kd2 Nd6 14.Ke2 Rf8 15.Ra7 Ne4 16.Ra5+ Kd4 17.Ra4+ Nc4 18.Ra7 Rf2+ 19.Ke1
 31/55-	00&#58;48	 625.624k	12.945k	-6,78	1.Ke3 Rd8
 31/55-	00&#58;50	 662.938k	13.013k	-6,84	1.Ke3 Rd8
 31/55	00&#58;53	 695.136k	13.072k	-6,86	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kd4 Ne5 4.Rh5 Nhf7 5.Kc5 Kb7 6.Rh7 Kc7 7.h3 Rd8 8.Rh5 Kb7 9.Rh7 Rb8 10.Kd5 Re8 11.Rh5 Rd8+ 12.Kc5 Rd3 13.h4 Rd7 14.Kb5 Rd5+ 15.Ka4 Kc6 16.Rh7 Rd3 17.Kb4 Rf3 18.Ka5 Rf4
 32/55-	00&#58;55	 725.862k	13.133k	-6,92	1.Ke3 Rd8
 32/55	00&#58;55	 729.875k	13.135k	-6,92	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kd4 Ne5 4.Rh5 Nhf7 5.Kc5 Kb7 6.Rh7 Kc7 7.Rh5 Rd8 8.Rh7 Rd3 9.Kb5 Rd5+ 10.Ka4 Kc6 11.Kb3 Rd8 12.h3 Rb8+ 13.Kc2 Re8 14.h4 Kd5 15.h5 Nd6 16.Kc1 Rc8+ 17.Kb2 Rb8+ 18.Kc2 Kd4 19.h6 Ndc4 20.Kc1 Ne3
 33/55-	00&#58;58	 767.793k	13.173k	-6,98	1.Ke3 Rd8
 33/55	00&#58;58	 772.380k	13.173k	-6,98	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kd4 Ne5 4.Rh5 Nhf7 5.Kc5 Kb7 6.Rh7 Kc7 7.Rh5 Rd8 8.Rh7 Rd3 9.Kb5 Rd5+ 10.Ka4 Kc6 11.Kb3 Rd8 12.h3 Rb8+ 13.Kc2 Kd5 14.h4 Nd6 15.Kc1 Rc8+ 16.Kb2 Rf8 17.h5 Rb8+ 18.Kc1 Rc8+ 19.Kb2 Rd8 20.Rh6 Ndf7 21.Rh7
 34/55	00&#58;59	 777.363k	13.175k	-6,98	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kd4 Ne5 4.Rh5 Nhf7 5.Kc5 Kb7 6.Rh7 Kc7 7.Rh5 Rd8 8.Rh7 Rd3 9.Kb5 Rd5+ 10.Ka4 Kc6 11.Kb3 Rd8 12.h3 Rb8+ 13.Kc2 Kd5 14.h4 Nd6 15.Kc1 Rc8+ 16.Kb2 Rf8 17.h5 Rb8+ 18.Kc1 Rc8+ 19.Kb2 Rd8 20.Rh6 Ndf7 21.Rh7 Rc8
 35/55-	01&#58;03	 843.997k	13.258k	-7,05	1.Ke3 Rd8
 35/55-	01&#58;06	 890.602k	13.336k	-7,11	1.Ke3 Rd8
 35/55-	01&#58;40	 1.421.247k	14.112k	-14,02	1.Ke3 Rd8
 35/55	01&#58;41	 1.432.280k	14.123k	-14,02	1.Ke3 Rd8 2.Ke4 Re8+ 3.Kd4 Ne5 4.Rh3 Kb7 5.Kd5 Nhf7 6.Rh7 Kb6 7.h4 Kb7 8.Kc5 Rd8 9.Kb4 Kc6 10.Kc3 Re8 11.h5 Kd5 12.Kc2 Rb8 13.Kc1 Rc8+ 14.Kb1 Rd8 15.Kc2 Kc6 16.Kc1 Rg8 17.Kd2 Nf3+ 18.Ke3 Re8+ 19.Kf2 N3g5 20.Rg7 Rh8 21.Rg6+ Kd5 22.h6 Ne6
 36/55-	01&#58;43	 1.470.023k	14.150k	-14,08	1.Ke3 Rd8
 36/57-	01&#58;45	 1.505.972k	14.245k	-14,14	1.Ke3 Rd8
 36/57+	01&#58;46	 1.527.885k	14.312k	-14,08	1.Ke4
 36/57-	01&#58;47	 1.539.925k	14.347k	-14,16	1.Ke4 Re2+
 36/57-	01&#58;56	 1.722.465k	14.812k	-16,90	1.Ke4 Re2+
 36/63+	01&#58;56	 1.731.296k	14.825k	-16,10	1.Ke4
 36/63-	01&#58;58	 1.756.896k	14.880k	-17,29	1.Ke4 Re2+
 36/63-	02&#58;04	 1.854.398k	14.914k	-26,14	1.Ke4 Re2+
 36/63+	02&#58;04	 1.858.042k	14.914k	-21,61	1.Ke4
 36/63-	02&#58;07	 1.901.442k	14.961k	-28,12	1.Ke4 Re2+
 36/63-	02&#58;09	 1.946.331k	14.976k	-46,02	1.Ke4 Re2+
 36/63+	02&#58;10	 1.951.410k	14.977k	-29,67	1.Ke4
 36/63	02&#58;10	 1.955.298k	14.975k	-46,02	1.Ke4 Re2+ 2.Kf3 Re8 3.Rh3 Nf7 4.Kg4 Kb7 5.Rh7 Nge5+ 6.Kg3 Rg8+ 7.Kf4 Kc6 8.Rh5 Re8 9.Ke4 Rd8 10.Ke3 Kd5 11.Kd2 Nd6 12.Kc2 Rc8+ 13.Kb2 Rf8 14.Kc3 Rb8 15.h3 Ne4+ 16.Kc2 Rf8 17.Rh7 Rf2+ 18.Kb3 Rf3+ 19.Kc2 Kd4 20.Rh4 Rc3+ 21.Kb2 Nc4+ 22.Kb1 Kc5 23.Rh5+ Kb4 24.Ka2
 37/63	02&#58;10	 1.955.776k	14.975k	-46,02	1.Ke4 Re2+ 2.Kf3 Re8 3.Rh3 Nf7 4.Kg4 Kb7 5.Rh7 Nge5+ 6.Kg3 Rg8+ 7.Kf4 Kc6 8.Rh5 Re8 9.Ke4 Rd8 10.Ke3 Kd5 11.Kd2 Nd6 12.Kc2 Rc8+ 13.Kb2 Rf8 14.Kc3 Rb8 15.h3 Ne4+ 16.Kc2 Rd8 17.Rh7 Rc8+ 18.Kb1 Rb8+ 19.Kc1 Rf8 20.Rg7 Rf1+ 21.Kb2 Rf2+ 22.Ka1 Nc3 23.Ra7 Nc4
 38/63	02&#58;10	 1.956.999k	14.975k	-46,02	1.Ke4 Re2+ 2.Kf3 Re8 3.Rh3 Nf7 4.Kg4 Kb7 5.Rh7 Nge5+ 6.Kg3 Rg8+ 7.Kf4 Kc6 8.Rh5 Re8 9.Ke4 Rd8 10.Ke3 Kd5 11.Kd2 Nd6 12.Kc2 Rc8+ 13.Kb2 Rf8 14.Ka2 Ne4 15.Rh6 Ra8+ 16.Kb2 Rd8 17.h4 Nd3+ 18.Kc2 Kd4 19.Kd1 Rb8 20.Ke2 Rb2+ 21.Kf1 Rf2+ 22.Kg1 Ne5 23.Rd6+ Kc5
 39/63	02&#58;10	 1.958.664k	14.974k	-46,02	1.Ke4 Re2+ 2.Kf3 Re8 3.Rh3 Nf7 4.Kg4 Kb7 5.Rh7 Nge5+ 6.Kg3 Rg8+ 7.Kf4 Kc6 8.Rh5 Re8 9.Ke4 Rd8 10.Ke3 Kd5 11.Kd2 Nd6 12.Kc2 Rc8+ 13.Kb2 Rf8 14.Kb3 Rb8+ 15.Kc2 Ra8 16.Rh6 Rf8 17.h3 Re8 18.Kb1 Rb8+ 19.Ka1 Ne4 20.Rh4 Ra8+ 21.Kb1 Kd4 22.Rh7 Rf8 23.Rc7 Rf1+ 24.Ka2
 40/63-	02&#58;13	 2.004.492k	15.018k	-46,08	1.Ke4 Re2+
 40/63-	02&#58;16	 2.054.883k	15.065k	-46,15	1.Ke4 Re2+
 40/63-	02&#58;18	 2.100.523k	15.116k	-46,24	1.Ke4 Re2+
 40/63+	02&#58;20	 2.120.259k	15.131k	-46,15	1.Ke4
 40/63-	02&#58;21	 2.147.363k	15.189k	-46,27	1.Ke4 Re2+
 40/63-	02&#58;25	 2.229.159k	15.332k	-47,05	1.Ke4 Re2+
 40/63+	02&#58;25	 2.231.585k	15.334k	-46,64	1.Ke4
 40/63-	02&#58;27	 2.268.093k	15.405k	-47,22	1.Ke4 Re2+
 40/63-	02&#58;36	 2.405.483k	15.414k	-54,70	1.Ke4 Re2+
 40/63+	02&#58;36	 2.410.829k	15.412k	-51,65	1.Ke4
 40/63-	02&#58;38	 2.453.033k	15.438k	-56,02	1.Ke4 Re2+
 40/63-	02&#58;43	 2.497.961k	15.300k	-67,95	1.Ke4 Re2+
 40/63+	02&#58;43	 2.500.025k	15.300k	-54,26	1.Ke4
 40/63-	02&#58;48	 2.542.904k	15.134k	-72,37	1.Ke4 Re2+
 40/63-	02&#58;51	 2.593.487k	15.148k	-112,65	1.Ke4 Re2+
 40/63+	02&#58;54	 2.642.600k	15.168k	-77,03	1.Ke4
 40/63-	02&#58;54	 2.642.738k	15.168k	-102,65	1.Ke4 Re2+
 40/63	03&#58;02	 2.764.254k	15.178k	-123,30	1.Ke4 Re2+ 2.Kf5 Ne7+ 3.Kg5 Nhg6 4.Kf6 Rf2+ 5.Kg5 Rf5+ 6.Kh6 Rf4 7.Kg5 Rf2 8.h3 Rf8 9.h4 Rf5+ 10.Kh6 Re5 11.Kg7 Nf4 12.Kf6 Nc6 13.Kf7 Kb7 14.Kf8+ Kc8 15.Kf7 Kd8 16.Rh8+ Kc7 17.Rh7 Kd7 18.Kf6+ Kd6 19.Rh8 Nh5+ 20.Kf7 Kd7 21.Kg6 Ne7+ 22.Kh6 Nf4 23.Kg7 Neg6 24.Rh6 Re7+ 25.Kf6 Re6+ 26.Kg7 Ne5
 41/63	03&#58;05	 2.829.030k	15.233k	-123,34	1.Ke4 Re2+ 2.Kd4 Re8 3.Rh6 Ne5 4.Rh3 Nhf7 5.Rh5 Ng6 6.Rh3 Rd8+ 7.Kc5 Nf4 8.Rh7 Ne5 9.Kb6 Rb8+ 10.Kc5 Neg6 11.h4 Rf8 12.Rh6 Ne7 13.Kb6 Nf5 14.Rh7 Nd5+ 15.Ka6 Nf6 16.Ra7+ Kb8 17.Rb7+ Kc8 18.Rb4 Nd5 19.Rc4+ Kd7 20.Rg4 Ra8+ 21.Kb5 Nd6+ 22.Kc5 Ra5+ 23.Kd4 Ra4+ 24.Ke5 Rxg4
 42/63	03&#58;06	 2.839.249k	15.237k	-123,34	1.Ke4 Re2+ 2.Kd4 Re8 3.Rh6 Ne5 4.Rh3 Nhf7 5.Rh5 Ng6 6.Rh3 Rd8+ 7.Kc5 Nf4 8.Rh7 Ne5 9.Kb6 Rb8+ 10.Kc5 Neg6 11.h4 Rf8 12.Rh6 Ne7 13.Kc4 Nf5 14.Rh7 Rc8+ 15.Kb5 Nd4+ 16.Ka6 Rc6+ 17.Ka5 Rc5+ 18.Kb6 Rh5 19.Ra7+ Kb8 20.Rb7+ Kc8 21.Rc7+ Kd8 22.Rc4 Nd5+ 23.Kc5 Ne3+ 24.Kb6 Nxc4+
 43/63	03&#58;18	 3.025.265k	15.211k	-123,36	1.Ke4 Re2+ 2.Kf5 Ne7+ 3.Kg5 Nhg6 4.Kf6 Rf2+ 5.Kg5 Rf1 6.h3 Rf8 7.h4 Rf5+ 8.Kh6 Re5 9.Kg7 Nf4 10.Kf6 Nc6 11.Rh8+ Kb7 12.Rh7+ Kc8 13.Rh8+ Kd7 14.Rh7+ Kd6 15.Rh8 Nh5+ 16.Kf7 Rf5+ 17.Kg6 Ne7+ 18.Kh6 Nf4 19.Kg7 Nfg6 20.Rd8+ Ke6 21.Rd4 Rf7+ 22.Kh6 Nxh4
 44/63	03&#58;22	 3.081.819k	15.213k	-123,36	1.Ke4 Re2+ 2.Kf5 Ne7+ 3.Kg5 Nhg6 4.Kf6 Rf2+ 5.Kg5 Rf1 6.h3 Rf8 7.h4 Rf5+ 8.Kh6 Re5 9.Kg7 Nf4 10.Kf6 Nc6 11.Rh8+ Kb7 12.Rh7+ Kc8 13.Rh8+ Kd7 14.Rh7+ Kd6 15.Rh8 Nh5+ 16.Kf7 Kd7 17.Kg6 Ne7+ 18.Kh6 Ke6 19.Rh7 Nf6 20.Rh8 Rh5+ 21.Kg7 Rxh8
 45/63	03&#58;23	 3.095.357k	15.204k	-123,36	1.Ke4 Re2+ 2.Kf5 Ne7+ 3.Kg5 Nhg6 4.Kf6 Rf2+ 5.Kg5 Rf1 6.h3 Rf8 7.h4 Rf5+ 8.Kh6 Re5 9.Kg7 Nf4 10.Kf6 Nc6 11.Rh8+ Kb7 12.Rh7+ Kc8 13.Rh8+ Kd7 14.Rh7+ Kd6 15.Rh8 Nh5+ 16.Kf7 Kd7 17.Kg6 Ne7+ 18.Kh6 Ke6 19.Rh7 Nf6 20.Rh8 Rh5+ 21.Kg7 Rxh8
 46/63	03&#58;43	 3.384.964k	15.144k	-123,39	1.Ke4 Rf2 2.Ke3 Rf8 3.Rh5 Re8+ 4.Kf2 Ne5 5.Rh3 Rf8+ 6.Kg1 Nf3+ 7.Kg2 Ng6 8.Rh7 Nfe5 9.Kg1 Nh4 10.h3 Nef3+ 11.Kh1 Nf5 12.Rd7 Re8 13.Kg2 N3h4+ 14.Kf2 Re3 15.Rd8+ Kb7 16.Rd7+ Kb6 17.Rd5 Rxh3
 47/63	03&#58;44	 3.402.412k	15.134k	-123,39	1.Ke4 Rf2 2.Ke3 Rf8 3.Rh5 Re8+ 4.Kf2 Ne5 5.Rh3 Rf8+ 6.Kg1 Nf3+ 7.Kg2 Ng6 8.Rh7 Nfe5 9.Kg1 Nh4 10.h3 Nef3+ 11.Kh1 Nf5 12.Rd7 Re8 13.Kg2 N3h4+ 14.Kf2 Re3 15.Rd8+ Kb7 16.Rd7+ Kb6 17.Rd5 Rxh3
 48/63	03&#58;47	 3.441.721k	15.132k	-123,39	1.Ke4 Rf2 2.Ke3 Rf8 3.Rh5 Re8+ 4.Kf2 Ne5 5.Rh3 Rf8+ 6.Kg1 Nf3+ 7.Kg2 Ng6 8.Rh7 Nfe5 9.Kg1 Nh4 10.h3 Nef3+ 11.Kh1 Nf5 12.Rd7 Re8 13.Kg2 N3h4+ 14.Kf2 Re3 15.Rd8+ Kb7 16.Rd7+ Kb6 17.Rd5 Rxh3
 49/63	03&#58;49	 3.472.860k	15.124k	-123,39	1.Ke4 Rf2 2.Ke3 Rf8 3.Rh5 Re8+ 4.Kf2 Ne5 5.Rh3 Rf8+ 6.Kg1 Nf3+ 7.Kg2 Ng6 8.Rh7 Nfe5 9.Kg1 Nh4 10.h3 Nef3+ 11.Kh1 Nf5 12.Rd7 Re8 13.Kg2 N3h4+ 14.Kf2 Re3 15.Rd8+ Kb7 16.Rd7+ Kb6 17.Rd5 Rxh3
 50/63	03&#58;53	 3.526.977k	15.113k	-123,39	1.Ke4 Rf2 2.Ke3 Rf8 3.Rh5 Re8+ 4.Kf2 Ne5 5.Rh3 Rf8+ 6.Kg1 Nf3+ 7.Kg2 Ng6 8.Rh7 Nfe5 9.Kg1 Nh4 10.h3 Nef3+ 11.Kh1 Nf5 12.Rd7 Re8 13.Kg2 N3h4+ 14.Kf2 Re3 15.Rd8+ Kb7 16.Rd7+ Kb6 17.Rd5 Rxh3
 51/63	03&#58;57	 3.581.324k	15.092k	-123,39	1.Ke4 Rf2 2.Ke3 Rf8 3.Rh5 Re8+ 4.Kf2 Ne5 5.Rh3 Rf8+ 6.Kg1 Nf3+ 7.Kg2 Ng6 8.Rh7 Nfe5 9.Kg1 Nh4 10.h3 Nef3+ 11.Kh1 Nf5 12.Rd7 Re8 13.Kg2 N3h4+ 14.Kf2 Re3 15.Rd8+ Kb7 16.Rd7+ Kb6 17.Rd5 Rxh3
 52/63	04&#58;03	 3.672.564k	15.087k	-123,39	1.Ke4 Rf2 2.Ke3 Rf8 3.Rh5 Re8+ 4.Kf2 Ne5 5.Rh3 Rf8+ 6.Kg1 Nf3+ 7.Kg2 Ng6 8.Rh7 Nfe5 9.Kg1 Nh4 10.h3 Nef3+ 11.Kh1 Nf5 12.Rd7 Re8 13.Kg2 N3h4+ 14.Kf2 Re3 15.Rd8+ Kb7 16.Rd7+ Kb6 17.Rd5 Rxh3

Posted: **Fri Aug 28, 2015 6:19 pm**

Thanks Arpad and all who have responded.

Posted: **Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:04 pm**

bob wrote:One interesting test is to remove the rooks, since this is a KNNKP type ending, and sure enough, it appears that if rooks are traded, this is a win for black because of the poor white h pawn location.

[d] 1n1qk1n1/8/8/8/8/8/7P/3QK3 w - - 0 1
In this position if white simply trades queens then the position is lost. Better to play Qe2+ instead but can white hold on?

Posted: **Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:39 pm**

if Qe2+ then ...Qe7 is still a Queen trade

Posted: **Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:58 pm**

Andre wrote:if Qe2+ then ...Qe7 is still a Queen trade

Of course and then black can win in 87 moves!

Perhaps white should try Qh5+ instead.

[d] 1n1qk1n1/8/8/7Q/8/8/7P/4K3 b - - 1 1

Posted: **Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:13 pm**

[d] 1n1qk1n1/8/8/8/8/8/7P/3QK3 w - - 0 1

Black wins:

1 Qd1xd8 -94
2 Qd1e2 -31
3 Qd1h5 -31
4 Qd1c2 -24
5 Qd1b3 -24

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Draw?

Draw?

Re: Draw?

Re: Draw?

Re: Draw?

Re: Draw?

Re: Draw?

Re: Draw?

Re: Draw?

Re: Draw?

Re: Draw?