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Re: Lee Sedol vs. AlphaGo [link to live feed]

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:16 am
by Uri Blass
Jesse Gersenson wrote:2-0

Watching the broadcast it was clear the google guy (on stage left) was given the evaulations. When the eval was a clear win he stood up and, tired from hours of focus, wanted to end the broadcast.

So, the eval is available, but not public. I agree with this choice. Showing the eval detracts interest in the game and places focus on the number.
The number is the only thing that I can understand because I understand nothing about the game.

I only know the rules.

Not having the number means that watching is not interesting to 99% of the people who do not know go or hardly know the rules of go.

Re: Lee Sedol vs. AlphaGo [link to live feed]

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:29 am
by Jesse Gersenson
Uri Blass wrote: The number is the only thing that I can understand because I understand nothing about the game.

I only know the rules.

Not having the number means that watching is not interesting to 99% of the people who do not know go or hardly know the rules of go.
The commentator gives his assessment of the game position, once every 10 or so moves. Surely the assessment of a 9-dan pro is better than the computer eval. Further, in the press conference google guy said they weren't confident of the machine's eval function, which would be another reason not to show the value.

I don't know much about go either but watching today's commentary improved my play 200 points?!

Re: Lee Sedol vs. AlphaGo [link to live feed]

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:29 am
by Ralph Stoesser
Jouni wrote:Wow, another "solved" board game!! What have we left now? Tuning Stockfish parameters ad infinitum :)?
Why not rewrite SF so that it creates art (=chess studies)? :)

Re: Lee Sedol vs. AlphaGo [link to live feed]

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:16 pm
by duncan
lee sodol seems to think that yesterday alpha go made some mistakes.
not according to the team though . if alpha go has a choice between a move which gains 20 points with 80% chance of win or 1 point with 90% chance win, it will go for the latter.

Re: Lee Sedol vs. AlphaGo [link to live feed]

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:34 pm
by Leto
In game 2 around 1 hour 18 minutes into the official stream apparently AlphaGo played a move that is so shocking that Lee Sedol left the room and the commentator who is a 9 dan pro with 30 years of experience was shocked at AlphaGo's move and thought the machine's operator must have placed the chip in the wrong spot. Michael said the move is called a "shoulder hit" and it is very unusual and the machine must have come up with it by itself rather than from a database.

Re: Lee Sedol vs. AlphaGo [link to live feed]

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:39 pm
by Vinvin
Leto wrote:In game 2 around 1 hour 18 minutes into the official stream apparently AlphaGo played a move that is so shocking that Lee Sedol left the room and the commentator who is a 9 dan pro with 30 years of experience was shocked at AlphaGo's move and thought the machine's operator must have placed the chip in the wrong spot. Michael said the move is called a "shoulder hit" and it is very unusual and the machine must have come up with it by itself rather than from a database.
Vid : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-GsfyV ... t=1h18m22s
Lib : http://senseis.xmp.net/?ShoulderHit

And the whole game to replay : https://online-go.com/demo/114754

Re: Lee Sedol vs. AlphaGo [link to live feed]

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 5:17 pm
by Laskos
Jesse Gersenson wrote:
Uri Blass wrote: The number is the only thing that I can understand because I understand nothing about the game.

I only know the rules.

Not having the number means that watching is not interesting to 99% of the people who do not know go or hardly know the rules of go.
The commentator gives his assessment of the game position, once every 10 or so moves.

Surely the assessment of a 9-dan pro is better than the computer eval.
Uri referred to the specific eval of AlphaGo, which is much more relevant than the opinions given during the game by both 9p pro Go commentators I saw in two different live feeds (DeepMind and AGA). The usual live feed with the American 9p commentator was especially in need of some clearer assessments. But it seems many 9p players are too confused to even say who has clear advantage until very close to the end of the game.

I observed a curiosity: strong amateur level Crazy Stone and Zenith saw clear advantage of AlphaGo at least from middlegame in these 2 games with Lee Sedol. Also, they saw the pretty early clear advantage of AlphaGo in games against Fan Hui, all 5 of them. In these games I used a post-mortem analysis, but based on that, if I can manage, I will check a bit with a real-time analysis using these "weak" tools (they are anyway much better than me). Why these "weak" engines seem to see better the outcome than some 9p pros is a mystery to me.

I expect Lee Sedol to try to make a difference in opening/early midgame, as it seems (again from engine analysis, not human pros) that it's the only game stage where he stands a chance. Maybe he will play some weird opening, let's see.
Further, in the press conference google guy said they weren't confident of the machine's eval function, which would be another reason not to show the value.

I don't know much about go either but watching today's commentary improved my play 200 points?!

Re: Lee Sedol vs. AlphaGo [link to live feed]

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:32 pm
by Jesse Gersenson
Starting a little earlier lets you see, and hear!, the placing of the stone and the reaction of the 9-dan pro:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-GsfyVCBu0&t=1h17m40s

He looks at the board. Then looks again and scowls. Then checks the board a 3rd time before placing the stone. Then checks it a few more times.

That Sedol left the room after a very surprising move isn't surprising. FIDE rules don't allow such behavior, but it's well known that after the opponent plays a startling move you need to regroup your thoughts and then begin looking at the position calmly to find the ideas beyond it.

Re: Lee Sedol vs. AlphaGo [link to live feed]

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:38 pm
by Henk
I thought this website was about computer chess. If not I will soon publish my latest monopoly games here.

Re: Lee Sedol vs. AlphaGo [link to live feed]

Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:08 pm
by whereagles
discussions take a life of their own...