What do you think the value of the Queen should be ?

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yurikvelo
Posts: 603
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:53 pm

Re: This last position could be misleading for most humans..

Post by yurikvelo » Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:17 pm

Code: Select all

D=37/51, 2 880 MN, Stockfish_16072409 
=0,00	1.e4 Ne7 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bd7 4.Bxc6 Bxc6 5.Nf3 b5 6.d3 Qf6 7.0-0 0-0 8.a3 a5 9.Be3 b4 10.Ne2 Bd7 11.Bd4 Qc6 12.Be3 Qf6

=0,00	1.Nc3 Ne7 2.e4 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bd7 4.Bxc6 Bxc6 5.Nf3 b5 6.d3 Qf6 7.0-0 0-0 8.a3 a5 9.Be3 b4 10.Ne2 Bd7 11.Bd4 Qc6 12.Be3 Qf6

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George
Posts: 682
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:44 pm

Re: This last position could be misleading for most humans..

Post by George » Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:01 pm

yurikvelo wrote:

Code: Select all

D=37/51, 2 880 MN, Stockfish_16072409 
=0,00	1.e4 Ne7 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bd7 4.Bxc6 Bxc6 5.Nf3 b5 6.d3 Qf6 7.0-0 0-0 8.a3 a5 9.Be3 b4 10.Ne2 Bd7 11.Bd4 Qc6 12.Be3 Qf6

=0,00	1.Nc3 Ne7 2.e4 Nc6 3.Bb5 Bd7 4.Bxc6 Bxc6 5.Nf3 b5 6.d3 Qf6 7.0-0 0-0 8.a3 a5 9.Be3 b4 10.Ne2 Bd7 11.Bd4 Qc6 12.Be3 Qf6
You did Not evaluated the position yourself, in which most humans select or pick White to win due to the three pawns missing in front of Black's King ==>

Anyway here is the first game Autoplayed by Stockfish 7 which is very instructive for us humans to see unfold ==>

[D]r1bqk1nr/ppp3pp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNB1KBNR w KQkq - 0 1 [D]

[Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "HP"]
[Date "2016.07.28"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish 7 x64"]
[Black "Stockfish 7 x64"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[BlackElo "2900"]
[Time "23:14:56"]
[WhiteElo "2900"]
[TimeControl "7200"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r1bqk1nr/ppp3pp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNB1KBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "55"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. e4 {(e2-e4 Ng8-e7 Nb1-c3 Ne7-c6 Bf1-b5 Qd8-g5 g2-g3 O-O d2-d3 Qg5-h5
Bc1-e3 Nc6-e5 d3-d4 Ne5-g4 Bb5-e2 Qh5-a5 Ng1-f3 c7-c5 O-O-O Ng4xe3 f2xe3
Bc8-g4 Rh1-f1 c5xd4 Nf3xd4 Bg4xe2 Nd4xe2 Qa5-e5 Rf1xf8+ Ra8xf8 Ne2-f4 g7-g5
Nf4-d3 Qe5-g7 Kc1-b1 Qg7-c7) -0.52/28 150} Ne7 {(Ng8-e7 Nb1-c3 Ne7-c6
Bf1-b5 Bc8-d7 Bb5xc6 Bd7xc6 d2-d3 O-O Ng1-f3 Qd8-d6 Bc1-e3 b7-b5 Nf3-d4
b5-b4 Nc3-e2 Bc6-a4 b2-b3 Ba4-d7 f2-f4 a7-a5 O-O a5-a4 Ne2-g3 Qd6-a6 f4-f5
a4xb3 a2xb3 Qa6xa1 Rf1xa1 Ra8xa1+ Kg1-f2) +0.33/29 190} 2. Nc3 {(Nb1-c3
Ne7-c6 Bf1-b5 Qd8-g5 g2-g3 Qg5-f6 d2-d3 O-O Bc1-e3 Nc6-d4 Bb5-c4+ Kg8-h8
Bc4-b3 Qf6-b6 Ng1-e2 Nd4-f3+ Ke1-d1 Qb6-f6 h2-h4 Rf8-e8 Kd1-c1 c7-c6 a2-a4
Bc8-g4 d3-d4 a7-a5 Kc1-b1 Bg4-e6 d4-d5 Be6-f7 Kb1-a2 Kh8-g8 Ne2-f4 h7-h6
Ka2-b1 c6xd5 Nc3xd5) -0.24/29 277} Nc6 {(Ne7-c6 Bf1-b5 Bc8-d7 Bb5xc6 Bd7xc6
d2-d3 O-O Bc1-e3 b7-b5 Ng1-f3 b5-b4 Nc3-e2 Qd8-f6 O-O Bc6-d7 Be3-d4 Qf6-d6
Nf3-d2 a7-a5 Nd2-c4 Qd6-e7 Nc4-e5 Bd7-a4 b2-b3 Ba4-b5 c2-c4 Bb5-a6 f2-f4
c7-c5 Bd4-e3 Ba6-b7 a2-a3) +0.21/28 301} 3. Bb5 {(Bf1-b5 Qd8-g5 Bb5xc6+
b7xc6 g2-g3 Qg5-h5 d2-d3 a7-a5 f2-f4 a5-a4 Ng1-e2 O-O Bc1-e3 Bc8-g4 Ke1-d2
Bg4-f3 Rh1-f1 Bf3xe2 Nc3xe2 Rf8-d8 h2-h4 Qh5-a5+ Ne2-c3 c6-c5 a2-a3 c5-c4
d3-d4 Ra8-b8 Ra1-b1 Rd8-e8 Kd2-e2 Rb8-d8) -0.21/27 118} Qg5 {(Qd8-g5
Bb5xc6+ b7xc6 g2-g3 O-O d2-d3 Qg5-a5 f2-f4 c6-c5 Ng1-f3 c5-c4 d3-d4 Bc8-h3
Ke1-f2 Qa5-h5 Bc1-e3 Ra8-b8 Ra1-b1 Rb8-e8 d4-d5 h7-h6 Nf3-d2 c7-c6 d5xc6
Qh5-g6 c6-c7 Qg6-c6 Nc3-d5 Re8xe4 Nd2xe4) +0.18/28 183} 4. Bxc6+ {(Bb5xc6+
b7xc6 g2-g3 Qg5-a5 d2-d3 O-O f2-f4 c6-c5 Ng1-f3 c5-c4 d3-d4 Bc8-h3 Ke1-f2
Qa5-h5 Bc1-e3 Ra8-b8 Ra1-b1 Rb8-e8 Rb1-e1 h7-h6 Nf3-e5 c7-c5 Ne5xc4 c5xd4
Be3xd4 Kg8-h7 Re1-e3 Kh7-g8 Nc4-e5 Re8-d8 Rh1-d1) -0.06/28 107} bxc6
{(b7xc6 g2-g3 a7-a5 d2-d3 Qg5-h5 Bc1-e3 a5-a4 h2-h3 Ra8-b8 Ra1-b1 O-O f2-f4
c6-c5 Ke1-f2 c5-c4 d3xc4 Qh5-a5 Ng1-e2 Bc8-b7 b2-b4 Qa5-h5 Nc3-d5 Qh5-e5
Nd5-c3 Bb7xe4 Be3-c5 Be4xh1 Bc5xf8 Qe5-f6 Rb1xh1 Kg8xf8) +0.26/26 161} 5.
g3 {(g2-g3 O-O d2-d3 Qg5-f6 f2-f4 Ra8-b8 Ra1-b1 Bc8-g4 h2-h3 Bg4-h5 Ng1-e2
c6-c5 Bc1-e3 Bh5-f3 Rh1-f1 Bf3-g2 Be3xc5 Rf8-e8 Bc5xa7 Rb8-a8 Ba7-e3 Bg2xh3
Rf1-h1 Bh3-g4 Ke1-f1 Bg4-f3 Rh1-h2 Qf6-c6 Rh2-f2) -0.03/28 319} O-O {(O-O
d2-d3 Qg5-f6 f2-f4 Ra8-b8 Ra1-b1 c6-c5 Ng1-f3 c5-c4 d3-d4 Bc8-h3 Ke1-f2
Rb8-e8 Bc1-e3 Qf6-h6 Rh1-g1 Qh6-h5 Nf3-d2 g7-g5 Nd2xc4 Bh3-g4 Nc4-e5
Qh5xh2+ Rg1-g2 Qh2-h3 f4-f5 c7-c5 Rb1-e1 c5xd4 Be3xd4 a7-a5 Ne5xg4 Qh3xg4)
+0.04/26 111} 6. d3 {(d2-d3 Qg5-f6 f2-f4 Ra8-b8 Ra1-b1 c6-c5 Ng1-f3 c5-c4
d3-d4 Bc8-h3 Ke1-f2 Rb8-e8 Bc1-e3 Qf6-h6 Rh1-g1 Kg8-h8 Kf2-e1 Kh8-g8
Ke1-f2) 0.00/29 108} Qh5 {(Qg5-h5 h2-h3 a7-a5 Bc1-e3 a5-a4 Ng1-e2 Bc8-g4
Ne2-f4 Qh5-h6 Nf4-e2 Qh6-h5) 0.00/29 76} 7. h3 {(h2-h3 a7-a5 Bc1-e3 a5-a4
Ng1-e2 Bc8-g4 Ne2-f4 Qh5-h6 Nf4-e2 Qh6-h5) 0.00/31 108} c5 {(c6-c5 b2-b3
a7-a5 a2-a4 Bc8-e6 Ng1-e2 Rf8-f3 Bc1-e3 Qh5-e5 Be3-f4 Qe5-f6 Bf4-e3 Qf6-e5)
0.00/30 110} 8. b3 {(b2-b3 a7-a5 a2-a4 Bc8-e6 Ng1-e2 Rf8-f3 Bc1-e3 Qh5-e5
Be3-f4 Qe5-f6 Bf4-e3 Qf6-e5) 0.00/32 94} a5 {(a7-a5 a2-a4 Bc8-e6 Ng1-e2
Rf8-f3 Bc1-e3 Qh5-e5 Be3-f4 Qe5-f6 Bf4-e3 Qf6-e5) 0.00/32 150} 9. a4
{(a2-a4 Bc8-e6 Ng1-e2 Rf8-f3 Bc1-e3 Qh5-e5 Be3-f4 Qe5-f6 Bf4-e3 Qf6-e5)
0.00/33 103} Be6 {(Bc8-e6 Ng1-e2 Rf8-f3 Bc1-e3 Qh5-e5 Be3-f4 Qe5-f6 Bf4-e3
Qf6-e5) 0.00/33 133} 10. Nge2 {(Ng1-e2 Ra8-d8 Ne2-f4 Qh5-f3 Rh1-f1 Rf8xf4
Bc1xf4 Be6xb3 c2xb3 Rd8xd3 Nc3-e2 Rd3xb3 e4-e5 Rb3-b2 Bf4-d2 Qf3-d3 Ra1-d1
Rb2xd2 Rd1xd2 Qd3-b1+ Rd2-d1 Qb1-b4+ Rd1-d2 Qb4-b1+) 0.00/33 386} Rad8
{(Ra8-d8 Ne2-f4 Qh5-f3 Rh1-f1 Rf8xf4 Bc1xf4 Be6xb3 c2xb3 Rd8xd3 Nc3-e2
Rd3xb3 e4-e5 Rb3-b2 Bf4-d2 Qf3-d3 Ra1-d1 Rb2xd2 Rd1xd2 Qd3-b1+ Rd2-d1
Qb1-b4+ Rd1-d2 Qb4-b1+) 0.00/33 115} 11. Nf4 {(Ne2-f4 Qh5-f3 Rh1-f1 Rf8xf4
Bc1xf4 Be6xb3 c2xb3 Rd8xd3 Nc3-e2 Rd3xb3 e4-e5 Rb3-b2 Bf4-d2 Qf3-d3 Ra1-d1
Rb2xd2 Rd1xd2 Qd3-b1+ Rd2-d1 Qb1-b4+ Rd1-d2 Qb4-b1+) 0.00/32 80} Qf3
{(Qh5-f3 Rh1-f1 Be6xb3 c2xb3 g7-g5 Nf4-e2 Rd8xd3 Bc1-d2 Rf8-b8 O-O-O Rd3-d4
Bd2-e3 Rd4xe4 Nc3xe4 Qf3xe4 Kc1-b2 c5-c4 Ne2-d4 Qe4-e5 Rf1-e1 Qe5-f6 Kb2-b1
Qf6-g6+ Kb1-b2 Qg6-f6) 0.00/33 220} 12. Rf1 {(Rh1-f1 Be6xb3 c2xb3 g7-g5
Nf4-e2 Rd8xd3 Bc1-d2 Rf8-b8 O-O-O Rd3-d4 Bd2-e3 Rd4xe4 Nc3xe4 Qf3xe4 Kc1-b2
c5-c4 Ne2-d4 Qe4-e5 Rf1-e1 Qe5-f6 Kb2-b1 Qf6-g6+ Kb1-b2 Qg6-f6) 0.00/34
117} Bxb3 {(Be6xb3 c2xb3 g7-g5 Nf4-e2 Rd8xd3 Bc1-d2 Rf8-b8 O-O-O Rd3-d4
Bd2-e3 Rd4xe4 Nc3xe4 Qf3xe4 Kc1-b2 c5-c4 Ne2-d4 Qe4-e5 Rf1-e1 Qe5-f6 Kb2-b1
Qf6-g6+ Kb1-b2 Qg6-f6) 0.00/34 222} 13. cxb3 {(c2xb3 g7-g5 Nf4-e2 Rd8xd3
Bc1-d2 Rf8-b8 O-O-O Rd3-d4 Bd2-e3 Rd4xe4 Nc3xe4 Qf3xe4 Kc1-b2 c5-c4 Ne2-d4
Qe4-e5 Rf1-e1 Qe5-f6 Kb2-b1 Qf6-g6+ Kb1-b2 Qg6-f6) 0.00/34 111} g5 {(g7-g5
Nf4-e2 Rd8xd3 Bc1-d2 Rf8-b8 O-O-O Rd3-d4 Bd2-e3 Rd4xe4 Nc3xe4 Qf3xe4 Kc1-b2
c5-c4 Ne2-d4 Qe4-e5 Rf1-e1 Qe5-f6 Kb2-b1 Qf6-g6+ Kb1-b2 Qg6-f6) 0.00/34 77}
14. Nfe2 {(Nf4-e2 Rd8xd3 Bc1-d2 Rf8-b8 O-O-O Rd3-d4 Bd2-e3 Rd4xe4 Nc3xe4
Qf3xe4 Kc1-b2 c5-c4 Ne2-d4 Qe4-e5 Rf1-e1 Qe5-f6 Kb2-b1 Qf6-g6+ Kb1-b2
Qg6-f6) 0.00/34 111} Rxd3 {(Rd8xd3 Bc1-d2 Rf8-b8 O-O-O Rd3-d4 Bd2-e3 Rd4xe4
Nc3xe4 Qf3xe4 Kc1-b2 c5-c4 Ne2-d4 Qe4-e5 Rf1-e1 Qe5-f6 Kb2-b1 Qf6-g6+
Kb1-b2 Qg6-f6) 0.00/35 209} 15. Bd2 {(Bc1-d2 Rf8-b8 O-O-O Rd3-d4 Bd2-e3
Rd4xe4 Nc3xe4 Qf3xe4 Kc1-b2 c5-c4 Ne2-d4 Qe4-e5 Rf1-e1 h7-h6 Be3-f4 Rb8xb3+
Kb2-c2 Qe5-c5 Re1-e8+ Kg8-f7 Rd1-e1 Rb3-b2+ Kc2xb2 Qc5xd4+ Kb2-a2 g5xf4
Re8-e7+ Kf7-g6 Re1-e6+ Kg6-f5 g3-g4+ Kf5-g5 Re6-e5+ Kg5-g6 Re5-e6+ Kg6-g5)
0.00/35 171} Rb8 {(Rf8-b8 O-O-O Rd3-d4 Bd2-e3 Rd4xe4 Nc3xe4 Qf3xe4 Kc1-b2
c5-c4 Ne2-d4 Qe4-e5 Rf1-e1 h7-h6 Be3-f4 Rb8xb3+ Kb2-c2 Qe5-c5 Re1-e8+
Kg8-f7 Rd1-e1 Rb3-b2+ Kc2xb2 Qc5xd4+ Kb2-a2 g5xf4 Re8-e7+ Kf7-g6 Re1-e6+
Kg6-f5 g3-g4+ Kf5-g5 Re6-e5+ Kg5-g6 Re5-e6+ Kg6-g5) 0.00/35 208} 16. O-O-O
{(O-O-O Rd3-d4 Bd2-e3 Rd4xe4 Nc3xe4 Qf3xe4 Kc1-b2 c5-c4 Ne2-d4 Qe4-e5
Rf1-e1 h7-h6 Be3-f4 Rb8xb3+ Kb2-c2 Qe5-c5 Re1-e8+ Kg8-f7 Rd1-e1 Rb3-b2+
Kc2xb2 Qc5xd4+ Kb2-a2 g5xf4 Re8-e7+ Kf7-g6 Re1-e6+ Kg6-f5 g3-g4+ Kf5-g5
Re6-e5+ Kg5-g6 Re5-e6+ Kg6-g5) 0.00/36 355} Rd4 {(Rd3-d4 Bd2-e3 Rd4xe4
Nc3xe4 Qf3xe4 Kc1-b2 c5-c4 Ne2-d4 Qe4-e5 Rf1-e1 h7-h6 Be3-f4 Rb8xb3+ Kb2-c2
Qe5-c5 Re1-e8+ Kg8-f7 Rd1-e1 Rb3-b2+ Kc2xb2 Qc5xd4+ Kb2-a2 g5xf4 Re8-e7+
Kf7-g6 Re1-e6+ Kg6-g5 Re6-e5+ Kg5-g6 Re5-e6+) 0.00/36 177} 17. Be3 {(Bd2-e3
Rd4xe4 Nc3xe4 Qf3xe4 Kc1-b2 c5-c4 Ne2-d4 Qe4-e5 Rf1-e1 h7-h6 Be3-f4 Rb8xb3+
Kb2-c2 Qe5-c5 Re1-e8+ Kg8-f7 Rd1-e1 Rb3-b2+ Kc2xb2 Qc5xd4+ Kb2-a2 g5xf4
Re8-e7+ Kf7-g6 Re1-e6+ Kg6-g5 Re6-e5+ Kg5-g6 Re5-e6+) 0.00/36 189} Rxe4
{(Rd4xe4 Nc3xe4 Qf3xe4 Kc1-b2 c5-c4 Ne2-d4 Qe4-e5 Rf1-e1 h7-h6 Be3-f4
Rb8xb3+ Kb2-c2 Qe5-c5 Re1-e8+ Kg8-f7 Rd1-e1 Rb3-b2+ Kc2xb2 Qc5xd4+ Kb2-a2
g5xf4 Re8-e7+ Kf7-g6 Re1-e6+ Kg6-g5 Re6-e5+ Kg5-g6 Re5-e6+) 0.00/36 434}
18. Nxe4 {(Nc3xe4 Qf3xe4 Kc1-b2 c5-c4 Ne2-d4 Qe4-e5 Rf1-e1 h7-h6 Be3-f4
Rb8xb3+ Kb2-c2 Qe5-c5 Re1-e8+ Kg8-f7 Rd1-e1 Rb3-b2+ Kc2xb2 Qc5xd4+ Kb2-a2
g5xf4 Re8-e7+ Kf7-g6 Re1-e6+ Kg6-g5 Re6-e5+ Kg5-g6 Re5-e6+) 0.00/36 183}
Qxe4 {(Qf3xe4 Kc1-b2 c5-c4 Ne2-d4 Qe4-e5 Rf1-e1 h7-h6 Be3-f4 Rb8xb3+ Kb2-c2
Qe5-c5 Re1-e8+ Kg8-f7 Rd1-e1 Rb3-b2+ Kc2xb2 Qc5xd4+ Kb2-a2 g5xf4 Re8-e7+
Kf7-g6 Re1-e6+ Kg6-g5 Re6-e5+ Kg5-g6 Re5-e6+) 0.00/36 78} 19. Kb2 {(Kc1-b2
c5-c4 Ne2-d4 Qe4-e5 Rf1-e1 h7-h6 Be3-f4 Rb8xb3+ Kb2-c2 Qe5-c5 Re1-e8+
Kg8-f7 Rd1-e1 Rb3-b2+ Kc2xb2 Qc5xd4+ Kb2-a2 g5xf4 Re8-e7+ Kf7-g6 Re1-e6+
Kg6-g5 Re6-e5+ Kg5-g6 Re5-e6+) 0.00/35 73} c4 {(c5-c4 Ne2-d4 Qe4-e5 Rf1-e1
h7-h6 Be3-f4 Rb8xb3+ Kb2-c2 Qe5-c5 Re1-e8+ Kg8-f7 Rd1-e1 Rb3-b2+ Kc2xb2
Qc5xd4+ Kb2-a2 g5xf4 Re8-e7+ Kf7-g6 Re1-e6+ Kg6-g5 Re6-e5+ Kg5-g6 Re5-e6+)
0.00/34 61} 20. Nd4 {(Ne2-d4 Qe4-e5 Rf1-e1 h7-h6 Be3-f4 Rb8xb3+ Kb2-c2
Qe5-c5 Re1-e8+ Kg8-f7 Rd1-e1 Rb3-b2+ Kc2xb2 Qc5xd4+ Kb2-a2 g5xf4 Re8-e7+
Kf7-g6 Re1-e6+ Kg6-g5 Re6-e5+ Kg5-g6 Re5-e6+) 0.00/34 83} Qe5 {(Qe4-e5
Rf1-e1 h7-h6 Be3-f4 Rb8xb3+ Kb2-c2 Qe5-c5 Re1-e8+ Kg8-f7 Rd1-e1 Rb3-b2+
Kc2xb2 Qc5xd4+ Kb2-a2 g5xf4 Re8-e7+ Kf7-g6 Re1-e6+ Kg6-g5 Re6-e5+ Kg5-g6
Re5-e6+) 0.00/34 87} 21. Rfe1 {(Rf1-e1 h7-h6 Be3-f4 Rb8xb3+ Kb2-c2 Qe5-c5
Re1-e8+ Kg8-f7 Rd1-e1 Rb3-b2+ Kc2xb2 Qc5xd4+ Kb2-a2 g5xf4 Re8-e7+ Kf7-g6
Re1-e6+ Kg6-g5 Re6-e5+ Kg5-g6 Re5-e6+) 0.00/34 352} h6 {(h7-h6 Be3-f4
Rb8xb3+ Kb2-c2 Qe5-c5 Re1-e8+ Kg8-f7 Rd1-e1 Rb3-b2+ Kc2xb2 Qc5xd4+ Kb2-a2
g5xf4 Re8-e7+ Kf7-g6 Re1-e6+ Kg6-g5 Re6-e5+ Kg5-g6 Re5-e6+) 0.00/33 86} 22.
h4 {(h3-h4 Qe5-f6 h4xg5 h6xg5 Kb2-b1 Qf6-g6+ Kb1-b2 Qg6-f6) 0.00/28 67} Qf6
{(Qe5-f6 h4xg5 h6xg5 Kb2-b1 Qf6-g6+ Kb1-b2 Qg6-f6) 0.00/29 58} 23. hxg5
{(h4xg5 h6xg5 Kb2-b1 Qf6-g6+ Kb1-c1 Qg6-f6 Re1-h1 c4xb3 g3-g4 Qf6-d6 Kc1-b1
Qd6-a3 Rd1-d2 Rb8-b4 Rh1-h5 Rb4xa4 Rh5xg5+ Kg8-f7 Rg5-f5+ Kf7-e8 Rf5-e5+
Ke8-f7 Re5-f5+) 0.00/30 144} hxg5 {(h6xg5 Kb2-b1 Qf6-g6+ Kb1-c1 Qg6-f6
Re1-h1 c4xb3 g3-g4 Qf6-d6 Kc1-b1 Qd6-a3 Rd1-d2 Rb8-b4 Rh1-h5 Rb4xa4 Rh5xg5+
Kg8-f7 Rg5-f5+ Kf7-e8 Rf5-e5+ Ke8-f7 Re5-f5+) 0.00/32 102} 24. Kb1 {(Kb2-b1
Qf6-g6+ Kb1-c1 Qg6-f6 Re1-h1 c4xb3 g3-g4 Qf6-d6 Kc1-b1 Qd6-a3 Rd1-d2 Rb8-b4
Rh1-h5 Rb4xa4 Rh5xg5+ Kg8-f7 Rg5-f5+ Kf7-e8 Rf5-e5+ Ke8-f7 Re5-f5+) 0.00/31
61} Qg6+ {(Qf6-g6+ Kb1-c1 Qg6-f6 Re1-h1 c4xb3 g3-g4 Qf6-d6 Kc1-b1 Qd6-a3
Rd1-d2 Rb8-b4 Rh1-h5 Rb4xa4 Rh5xg5+ Kg8-f7 Rg5-f5+ Kf7-e8 Rf5-e5+ Ke8-f7
Re5-f5+) 0.00/31 79} 25. Ka1 {(Kb1-a1 Qg6-f6 Ka1-b1) 0.00/33 108} Qf6
{(Qg6-f6 Ka1-b1) 0.00/34 99} 26. Kb1 {(Ka1-b1) 0.00/35 88} Qg6+ {(Qf6-g6+)
0.00/35 77} 27. Ka1 {(Kb1-a1) 0.00/35 109} Qf6 {(Qg6-f6) 0.00/35 126} 28.
Kb1 {(Ka1-b1) 0.00/35 85 3-fold repetition} 1/2-1/2

Guenther
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Full name: Guenther Simon
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Re: This last position could be misleading for most humans..

Post by Guenther » Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:11 pm

George wrote:
You did Not evaluated the position yourself, in which most humans select or pick White to win due to the three pawns missing in front of Black's King ==>

Anyway here is the first game Autoplayed by Stockfish 7 which is very instructive for us humans to see unfold ==>

[Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "HP"]
[Date "2016.07.28"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish 7 x64"]
[Black "Stockfish 7 x64"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[BlackElo "2900"]
[Time "23:14:56"]
[WhiteElo "2900"]
[TimeControl "7200"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r1bqk1nr/ppp3pp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNB1KBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "55"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

Arena users: UNCHECK save mainline!!!

(a thread seven years ago - still crucial!! - BTW there is also away
to shrink the font size which makes it even more readable... at least for
those who really read it and not only copy/paste where the font size is
irrelevant anyway)

Guenther
Posts: 3566
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:33 am
Location: Regensburg, Germany
Full name: Guenther Simon
Contact:

Re: What do you think the value of the Queen should be ?

Post by Guenther » Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:19 pm

George wrote:Without letting your Komodo 9 or Stockfish autoplay this position, by simply looking at it what side do you think has a better chance of winning, and what do you say about the value of the Queen after you find out ?
2bqkbnr/ppp1p1pp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNB1KBNR w KQk - 0 1 [D]

Stockfish 7 x64:
Stockfish 7 x64
Transformed it to a pgn file...


[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2016.07.28"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "A06"]
[PlyCount "28"]
[EventDate "2016.07.28"]
[SourceDate "2016.07.28"]

1. Nf3 d5 2. Nd4 f5 3. Nxf5 Nf6 4. Ne3 Ne4 5. Nxd5 Nc3 6. Nb6 Nxd1 7. Nxa8
Ne3 8. Nb6 Nd5 9. Nd7 Ne3 10. Nxb8 Nc4 11. Nc6 Ne3 12. Nd4 Ng4 13. Nf3 Nf6
14. Ng1 Ng8 *


I would have liked to play 120 games as a start with SF_ASM vs. SF at
increasing by 15s tcs, but I needed my computer already after 54 games.
(of course no LTC there are more important things... and AFAIK there are
no known start positions which dramatically change the stats at LTC)

For what it's worth, after that 54 games the count was:
+3 -8 =43 from Whites' POV.

Code: Select all

Hash 256MB 1 Thread Syzygy 5men Ponder off
20 games 40/75 => +3 -1 =16
20 games 40/90 => +0 -4 =16
14 games 40/105 => +0 -3 =11
StockfishASM_1707-64
Stockfish_16071607-64
The last 2 games as example

[Event "Q-RN2P"]
[Site "CAPPUCCINO"]
[Date "2016.07.28"]
[Round "13"]
[White "StockfishASM_1707-64"]
[Black "Stockfish_16071607-64"]
[Result "0-1"]
[TimeControl "40/105"]
[Number "13"]
[Annotator "15. +0.15 15... -0.22"]

1. Nf3 d5 2. Nd4 f5 3. Nxf5 Nf6 4. Ne3 Ne4 5. Nxd5 Nc3 6. Nb6 Nxd1 7. Nxa8
Ne3 8. Nb6 Nd5 9. Nd7 Ne3 10. Nxb8 Nc4 11. Nc6 Ne3 12. Nd4 Ng4 13. Nf3 Nf6
14. Ng1 Ng8 15. Nc3 {+0.15/18 5} Nf6 {-0.22/19 6} 16. d3 {+0.26/19 3} e5
{-0.20/19 2.5} 17. Nf3 {+0.05/19 7} Bc5 {-0.13/18 0.8} 18. e3
{+0.29/19 1.8} Qe7 {-0.13/20 7} 19. Bd2 {+0.25/19 4} O-O {-0.07/19 2.5} 20.
Be2 {+0.19/20 11} e4 {-0.01/17 4} 21. Ng5 {+0.13/20 4} exd3 {-0.05/19 6}
22. cxd3 {+0.13/18 2.8} c6 {-0.08/18 4} 23. Rc1 {+0.21/18 5} Bd6
{-0.12/18 5} 24. h3 {+0.08/18 4} Bc7 {-0.10/19 11} 25. a3 {+0.00/18 9} h6
{-0.12/19 8} 26. Nf3 {+0.00/22 4} g5 {-0.16/18 3} 27. Na4 {+0.19/17 4} Bd6
{-0.08/16 1.1} 28. b4 {+0.17/16 3} Bd7 {-0.11/18 15} 29. Nc5 {+0.08/17 4}
Bc8 {-0.17/18 2.2} 30. Nd4 {+0.00/17 4} Nd5 {+0.00/15 1.5} 31. Ndb3
{+0.11/17 3} Bb8 {+0.00/18 8} 32. Na5 {+0.03/20 11} Qf7 {-0.06/18 2.0} 33.
Bf3 {+0.00/17 2.0} h5 {+0.00/18 6} 34. Rc2 {+0.04/18 2.1} Re8 {-0.13/17 4}
35. Be2 {+0.28/17 2.2} Re7 {-0.19/16 2.7} 36. Ne4 {+0.49/16 1.6} Qg6
{-0.42/14 1.0} 37. Rc4 {+0.49/16 1.7} Be6 {-0.31/14 0.5} 38. g4
{+0.24/18 3} h4 {-0.36/14 0.6} 39. Rc2 {+0.08/17 1.7} Bc8 {-0.31/12 0.5}
40. Bf3 {+0.44/15 0.4} Nf6 {-0.06/12 0.8} 41. Rc4 {+0.00/18 9} Be6
{+0.00/18 6} 42. Rc5 {+0.00/21 7} Bd5 {+0.14/20 5} 43. Nxf6+ {-0.40/20 9}
Qxf6 {+0.19/18 0.6} 44. Bxd5+ {-0.19/19 1.9} cxd5 {+0.22/22 8} 45. Rf1
{-0.31/21 4} Qe6 {+0.17/21 1.2} 46. Rc1 {-0.40/23 14} Be5 {+0.39/20 3} 47.
a4 {-0.48/22 9} Bb2 {+0.52/19 3} 48. Rc2 {-0.42/21 5} Bg7 {+0.65/19 2.2}
49. Ke2 {-0.81/21 8} Qd6 {+0.78/17 0.5} 50. Rcc1 {-1.01/21 5} Qh2
{+0.79/20 3} 51. Rh1 {-1.01/21 1.4} Qe5 {+0.77/18 1.1} 52. Nb3
{-1.05/20 2.3} Qb2 {+0.79/20 2.4} 53. Na1 {-1.05/20 1.9} Rf7 {+1.02/18 0.6}
54. Nc2 {-1.05/20 4} Qa2 {+0.94/19 5} 55. b5 {-0.86/18 1.7} b6 {+0.96/21 5}
56. Rhf1 {-0.76/16 0.5} Qxa4 {+1.10/20 1.5} 57. Ne1 {-0.95/18 1.5} Qxb5
{+1.13/19 0.6} 58. f4 {-1.05/18 2.0} d4 {+1.32/19 2.9} 59. e4
{-1.05/16 1.3} Re7 {+1.39/15 0.4} 60. Kf2 {-1.28/18 3} gxf4 {+1.48/18 3}
61. Rc8+ {-1.51/17 2.3} Kh7 {+1.76/17 3} 62. Kg1 {-1.39/16 0.5} Be5
{+1.76/19 8} 63. Bxf4 {-1.48/16 1.6} Rf7 {+2.70/20 1.2} 64. Bd2
{-2.79/17 0.9} Qb3 {+3.07/20 1.7} 65. Kg2 {-2.98/19 1.2} Rxf1
{+3.97/22 1.8} 66. Kxf1 {-3.42/20 0.8} Qd1 {+4.02/21 0.4} 67. Bg5
{-3.98/21 1.4} Bg3 {+4.22/22 2.5} 68. Rc1 {-3.81/20 0.5} Qb3 {+4.29/20 0.4}
69. Ke2 {-4.30/19 0.8} Bxe1 {+4.44/21 1.3} 70. Rxe1 {-4.45/19 0.9} Qc2+
{+4.41/19 0.7} 71. Bd2 {-4.50/18 0.4} Qc7 {+4.76/20 2.1} 72. Kd1
{-4.57/19 1.1} Qg3 {+4.85/18 0.7} 73. Kc2 {-4.73/16 0.3} Qxh3
{+5.12/19 2.1} 74. e5 {-4.42/15 0.1} Kg8 {+5.29/18 1.3} 75. e6
{-4.96/15 0.5} Kf8 {+5.58/18 1.6} 76. Bb4+ {-5.09/14 0.3} Ke8
{+5.86/21 1.7} 77. Bd6 {-4.92/14 0.2} Qg2+ {+7.03/20 4} 78. Kd1
{-5.04/14 0.1} Qxg4+ {+6.81/19 0.6} 79. Re2 {-4.92/13 0.1} h3 {+7.66/22 4}
80. Kd2 {-5.63/13 0.1} Qg5+ {+7.82/21 1.6} 81. Ke1 {-7.84/21 5} Qa5+
{+8.12/21 2.7} 82. Kf2 {-9.32/24 13} Qd5 {+8.22/21 0.8} 83. Bc7
{-9.70/24 6} Qg2+ {+9.05/23 2.6} 84. Ke1 {-9.70/1} Qh1+ {+9.13/23 1.0} 85.
Kd2 {-10.89/23 4} Qc6 {+12.22/23 8} 86. Bb8 {-12.78/24 5} Qc3+
{+13.15/19 1.3} 87. Kd1 {-12.78/1} Qxd3+ {+13.97/21 4} 88. Rd2
{-15.90/24 9}
{Xboard adjudication} 0-1

[Event "Q-RN2P"]
[Site "CAPPUCCINO"]
[Date "2016.07.28"]
[Round "14"]
[White "Stockfish_16071607-64"]
[Black "StockfishASM_1707-64"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[TimeControl "40/105"]
[Number "14"]
[Annotator "15. +0.32 15... -0.25"]

1. Nf3 d5 2. Nd4 f5 3. Nxf5 Nf6 4. Ne3 Ne4 5. Nxd5 Nc3 6. Nb6 Nxd1 7. Nxa8
Ne3 8. Nb6 Nd5 9. Nd7 Ne3 10. Nxb8 Nc4 11. Nc6 Ne3 12. Nd4 Ng4 13. Nf3 Nf6
14. Ng1 Ng8 15. Nc3 {+0.32/20 12} e5 {-0.25/20 5} 16. e3 {+0.28/20 10} Bd6
{-0.22/20 5} 17. Nf3 {+0.24/20 3} Qe7 {-0.11/20 2.8} 18. e4 {+0.33/16 0.6}
c6 {-0.01/18 2.4} 19. Bc4 {+0.12/20 7} Bg4 {-0.12/21 5} 20. Be2
{+0.16/20 2.2} Nf6 {-0.11/21 5} 21. d3 {+0.05/18 1.6} O-O {-0.08/20 5} 22.
O-O {+0.05/18 7} Bc5 {+0.00/19 6} 23. a3 {+0.06/18 4} a5 {+0.00/20 2.4} 24.
Bd2 {+0.10/18 2.0} b5 {+0.00/21 4} 25. Nd1 {+0.00/20 3} Nh5 {+0.00/23 3}
26. Ne3 {+0.00/20 1.9} Bxf3 {+0.00/24 2.2} 27. Bxf3 {+0.00/24 2.6} Rxf3
{+0.00/26 4} 28. gxf3 {+0.00/25 0.5} Qg5+ {+0.00/27 3} 29. Kh1 {+0.00/28 3}
Qf4 {+0.00/30 6} 30. Kg2 {+0.00/26 3} Qg5+ {+0.00/30 2.3} 31. Kh1
{+0.00/44 2.7} Qf4 {+0.00/32 4} 32. Kg2 {+0.00/29 3} Qg5+ {+0.00/34 4} 33.
Kh1 {+0.00/48 4}
{Draw by repetition} 1/2-1/2




Guenther

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: What do you think the value of the Queen should be ?

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Sat Jul 30, 2016 5:58 am

Guenther wrote:
George wrote:Without letting your Komodo 9 or Stockfish autoplay this position, by simply looking at it what side do you think has a better chance of winning, and what do you say about the value of the Queen after you find out ?
2bqkbnr/ppp1p1pp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNB1KBNR w KQk - 0 1 [D]

Stockfish 7 x64:
Stockfish 7 x64
Transformed it to a pgn file...


[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2016.07.28"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "A06"]
[PlyCount "28"]
[EventDate "2016.07.28"]
[SourceDate "2016.07.28"]

1. Nf3 d5 2. Nd4 f5 3. Nxf5 Nf6 4. Ne3 Ne4 5. Nxd5 Nc3 6. Nb6 Nxd1 7. Nxa8
Ne3 8. Nb6 Nd5 9. Nd7 Ne3 10. Nxb8 Nc4 11. Nc6 Ne3 12. Nd4 Ng4 13. Nf3 Nf6
14. Ng1 Ng8 *


I would have liked to play 120 games as a start with SF_ASM vs. SF at
increasing by 15s tcs, but I needed my computer already after 54 games.
(of course no LTC there are more important things... and AFAIK there are
no known start positions which dramatically change the stats at LTC)

For what it's worth, after that 54 games the count was:
+3 -8 =43 from Whites' POV.

Code: Select all

Hash 256MB 1 Thread Syzygy 5men Ponder off
20 games 40/75 => +3 -1 =16
20 games 40/90 => +0 -4 =16
14 games 40/105 => +0 -3 =11
StockfishASM_1707-64
Stockfish_16071607-64
The last 2 games as example

[Event "Q-RN2P"]
[Site "CAPPUCCINO"]
[Date "2016.07.28"]
[Round "13"]
[White "StockfishASM_1707-64"]
[Black "Stockfish_16071607-64"]
[Result "0-1"]
[TimeControl "40/105"]
[Number "13"]
[Annotator "15. +0.15 15... -0.22"]

1. Nf3 d5 2. Nd4 f5 3. Nxf5 Nf6 4. Ne3 Ne4 5. Nxd5 Nc3 6. Nb6 Nxd1 7. Nxa8
Ne3 8. Nb6 Nd5 9. Nd7 Ne3 10. Nxb8 Nc4 11. Nc6 Ne3 12. Nd4 Ng4 13. Nf3 Nf6
14. Ng1 Ng8 15. Nc3 {+0.15/18 5} Nf6 {-0.22/19 6} 16. d3 {+0.26/19 3} e5
{-0.20/19 2.5} 17. Nf3 {+0.05/19 7} Bc5 {-0.13/18 0.8} 18. e3
{+0.29/19 1.8} Qe7 {-0.13/20 7} 19. Bd2 {+0.25/19 4} O-O {-0.07/19 2.5} 20.
Be2 {+0.19/20 11} e4 {-0.01/17 4} 21. Ng5 {+0.13/20 4} exd3 {-0.05/19 6}
22. cxd3 {+0.13/18 2.8} c6 {-0.08/18 4} 23. Rc1 {+0.21/18 5} Bd6
{-0.12/18 5} 24. h3 {+0.08/18 4} Bc7 {-0.10/19 11} 25. a3 {+0.00/18 9} h6
{-0.12/19 8} 26. Nf3 {+0.00/22 4} g5 {-0.16/18 3} 27. Na4 {+0.19/17 4} Bd6
{-0.08/16 1.1} 28. b4 {+0.17/16 3} Bd7 {-0.11/18 15} 29. Nc5 {+0.08/17 4}
Bc8 {-0.17/18 2.2} 30. Nd4 {+0.00/17 4} Nd5 {+0.00/15 1.5} 31. Ndb3
{+0.11/17 3} Bb8 {+0.00/18 8} 32. Na5 {+0.03/20 11} Qf7 {-0.06/18 2.0} 33.
Bf3 {+0.00/17 2.0} h5 {+0.00/18 6} 34. Rc2 {+0.04/18 2.1} Re8 {-0.13/17 4}
35. Be2 {+0.28/17 2.2} Re7 {-0.19/16 2.7} 36. Ne4 {+0.49/16 1.6} Qg6
{-0.42/14 1.0} 37. Rc4 {+0.49/16 1.7} Be6 {-0.31/14 0.5} 38. g4
{+0.24/18 3} h4 {-0.36/14 0.6} 39. Rc2 {+0.08/17 1.7} Bc8 {-0.31/12 0.5}
40. Bf3 {+0.44/15 0.4} Nf6 {-0.06/12 0.8} 41. Rc4 {+0.00/18 9} Be6
{+0.00/18 6} 42. Rc5 {+0.00/21 7} Bd5 {+0.14/20 5} 43. Nxf6+ {-0.40/20 9}
Qxf6 {+0.19/18 0.6} 44. Bxd5+ {-0.19/19 1.9} cxd5 {+0.22/22 8} 45. Rf1
{-0.31/21 4} Qe6 {+0.17/21 1.2} 46. Rc1 {-0.40/23 14} Be5 {+0.39/20 3} 47.
a4 {-0.48/22 9} Bb2 {+0.52/19 3} 48. Rc2 {-0.42/21 5} Bg7 {+0.65/19 2.2}
49. Ke2 {-0.81/21 8} Qd6 {+0.78/17 0.5} 50. Rcc1 {-1.01/21 5} Qh2
{+0.79/20 3} 51. Rh1 {-1.01/21 1.4} Qe5 {+0.77/18 1.1} 52. Nb3
{-1.05/20 2.3} Qb2 {+0.79/20 2.4} 53. Na1 {-1.05/20 1.9} Rf7 {+1.02/18 0.6}
54. Nc2 {-1.05/20 4} Qa2 {+0.94/19 5} 55. b5 {-0.86/18 1.7} b6 {+0.96/21 5}
56. Rhf1 {-0.76/16 0.5} Qxa4 {+1.10/20 1.5} 57. Ne1 {-0.95/18 1.5} Qxb5
{+1.13/19 0.6} 58. f4 {-1.05/18 2.0} d4 {+1.32/19 2.9} 59. e4
{-1.05/16 1.3} Re7 {+1.39/15 0.4} 60. Kf2 {-1.28/18 3} gxf4 {+1.48/18 3}
61. Rc8+ {-1.51/17 2.3} Kh7 {+1.76/17 3} 62. Kg1 {-1.39/16 0.5} Be5
{+1.76/19 8} 63. Bxf4 {-1.48/16 1.6} Rf7 {+2.70/20 1.2} 64. Bd2
{-2.79/17 0.9} Qb3 {+3.07/20 1.7} 65. Kg2 {-2.98/19 1.2} Rxf1
{+3.97/22 1.8} 66. Kxf1 {-3.42/20 0.8} Qd1 {+4.02/21 0.4} 67. Bg5
{-3.98/21 1.4} Bg3 {+4.22/22 2.5} 68. Rc1 {-3.81/20 0.5} Qb3 {+4.29/20 0.4}
69. Ke2 {-4.30/19 0.8} Bxe1 {+4.44/21 1.3} 70. Rxe1 {-4.45/19 0.9} Qc2+
{+4.41/19 0.7} 71. Bd2 {-4.50/18 0.4} Qc7 {+4.76/20 2.1} 72. Kd1
{-4.57/19 1.1} Qg3 {+4.85/18 0.7} 73. Kc2 {-4.73/16 0.3} Qxh3
{+5.12/19 2.1} 74. e5 {-4.42/15 0.1} Kg8 {+5.29/18 1.3} 75. e6
{-4.96/15 0.5} Kf8 {+5.58/18 1.6} 76. Bb4+ {-5.09/14 0.3} Ke8
{+5.86/21 1.7} 77. Bd6 {-4.92/14 0.2} Qg2+ {+7.03/20 4} 78. Kd1
{-5.04/14 0.1} Qxg4+ {+6.81/19 0.6} 79. Re2 {-4.92/13 0.1} h3 {+7.66/22 4}
80. Kd2 {-5.63/13 0.1} Qg5+ {+7.82/21 1.6} 81. Ke1 {-7.84/21 5} Qa5+
{+8.12/21 2.7} 82. Kf2 {-9.32/24 13} Qd5 {+8.22/21 0.8} 83. Bc7
{-9.70/24 6} Qg2+ {+9.05/23 2.6} 84. Ke1 {-9.70/1} Qh1+ {+9.13/23 1.0} 85.
Kd2 {-10.89/23 4} Qc6 {+12.22/23 8} 86. Bb8 {-12.78/24 5} Qc3+
{+13.15/19 1.3} 87. Kd1 {-12.78/1} Qxd3+ {+13.97/21 4} 88. Rd2
{-15.90/24 9}
{Xboard adjudication} 0-1

[Event "Q-RN2P"]
[Site "CAPPUCCINO"]
[Date "2016.07.28"]
[Round "14"]
[White "Stockfish_16071607-64"]
[Black "StockfishASM_1707-64"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[TimeControl "40/105"]
[Number "14"]
[Annotator "15. +0.32 15... -0.25"]

1. Nf3 d5 2. Nd4 f5 3. Nxf5 Nf6 4. Ne3 Ne4 5. Nxd5 Nc3 6. Nb6 Nxd1 7. Nxa8
Ne3 8. Nb6 Nd5 9. Nd7 Ne3 10. Nxb8 Nc4 11. Nc6 Ne3 12. Nd4 Ng4 13. Nf3 Nf6
14. Ng1 Ng8 15. Nc3 {+0.32/20 12} e5 {-0.25/20 5} 16. e3 {+0.28/20 10} Bd6
{-0.22/20 5} 17. Nf3 {+0.24/20 3} Qe7 {-0.11/20 2.8} 18. e4 {+0.33/16 0.6}
c6 {-0.01/18 2.4} 19. Bc4 {+0.12/20 7} Bg4 {-0.12/21 5} 20. Be2
{+0.16/20 2.2} Nf6 {-0.11/21 5} 21. d3 {+0.05/18 1.6} O-O {-0.08/20 5} 22.
O-O {+0.05/18 7} Bc5 {+0.00/19 6} 23. a3 {+0.06/18 4} a5 {+0.00/20 2.4} 24.
Bd2 {+0.10/18 2.0} b5 {+0.00/21 4} 25. Nd1 {+0.00/20 3} Nh5 {+0.00/23 3}
26. Ne3 {+0.00/20 1.9} Bxf3 {+0.00/24 2.2} 27. Bxf3 {+0.00/24 2.6} Rxf3
{+0.00/26 4} 28. gxf3 {+0.00/25 0.5} Qg5+ {+0.00/27 3} 29. Kh1 {+0.00/28 3}
Qf4 {+0.00/30 6} 30. Kg2 {+0.00/26 3} Qg5+ {+0.00/30 2.3} 31. Kh1
{+0.00/44 2.7} Qf4 {+0.00/32 4} 32. Kg2 {+0.00/29 3} Qg5+ {+0.00/34 4} 33.
Kh1 {+0.00/48 4}
{Draw by repetition} 1/2-1/2




Guenther
What is this 40/75, 40/90, 40/105 thing?
Why match 2 different engines?

As said, any TC lower than 5' for the game will produce distorted results.

I played 10 games with Komodo 8 vs itself (actually I am forcing moves from Komodo, giving it couple of seconds per move, so a 100 move game would last 300 sec. = 5 min) and, as fully expected, score was +9,=0,-1 from white's point of view.

In all of the games, score was changing from negative for white to hugely positive. White Komodo lost a single game to a king attack.

As said, many eval terms overperform at bullet TC, and that is how engines are mostly tuned.

You certainly could play 10 5'games with SF vs SF, same version, or even better Komodo, as SF sees threefolds all the time.

If white does not win with a score over 80%, I am leaving this form.

Not that I care, but this is a total misrepresentation of what the position actually offer.

Did not changing eval from - to + in the single LTC game from Jorge strike a bell?

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: What do you think the value of the Queen should be ?

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Sat Jul 30, 2016 6:03 am

Not that I care, but even if you remove one pawn from white that is not central, say a2 or h2, white still wins.

And by a large margin. I do not have the slightest doubt about that.

User avatar
George
Posts: 682
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:44 pm

Re: What do you think the value of the Queen should be ?

Post by George » Sat Jul 30, 2016 8:24 am

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:Not that I care, but even if you remove one pawn from white that is not central, say a2 or h2, white still wins.

And by a large margin. I do not have the slightest doubt about that.
Long time ago I learnt that the value of he Queen was only 9, in most cases 2 rooks are stronger than one queen. There are different values to pieces in different positions, and there are even differences in starting values, according to different strong players, but with strong engines we are starting to learn different.

Out of curiosity, Why not try to pit Komodo vs Stockfish latest version and reverse side especially with my last position? Again I believe that the value of the Queen should be at least 9.9.

[D]r1bqk1nr/ppp3pp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNB1KBNR w KQkq - 0 1 [D]

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Nordlandia
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Re: What do you think the value of the Queen should be ?

Post by Nordlandia » Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:47 am

«Two rooks roughly balance a queen, but with equal pawns, the rooks are usually stronger. This is especially true if there are weak pawns to attack, since the rooks can double up and attack them more times than the queen can defend. This is a typical example»

«The Queen is weaker than two Rooks if the hostile King is protected against Checks, otherwise it may be stronger. Ceteris paribus, it would appear that the Queen is trifle weaker than two Rooks»

«A natural assumption is that the two rooks will be stronger than the queen in the majority of positions; another is that a material balance is struck when the side with the queen has an extra pawn. I must admit that, when I examined top-flight games from my database, I was surprised to see that the queen outscored the rooks. I would have predicted a small edge for the rooks but in fact the side with the queen managed 55%»

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George
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Re: What do you think the value of the Queen should be ?

Post by George » Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:54 pm

Nordlandia wrote:«Two rooks roughly balance a queen, but with equal pawns, the rooks are usually stronger. This is especially true if there are weak pawns to attack, since the rooks can double up and attack them more times than the queen can defend. This is a typical example»

«The Queen is weaker than two Rooks if the hostile King is protected against Checks, otherwise it may be stronger. Ceteris paribus, it would appear that the Queen is trifle weaker than two Rooks»

«A natural assumption is that the two rooks will be stronger than the queen in the majority of positions; another is that a material balance is struck when the side with the queen has an extra pawn. I must admit that, when I examined top-flight games from my database, I was surprised to see that the queen outscored the rooks. I would have predicted a small edge for the rooks but in fact the side with the queen managed 55%»
I search all of GM Carlsen games and none he has exchanged his Queen for two Rooks or a Rook+ Knights + pawn. When Carlsen was a kid just days after he drew with Kasparov at age 12 he was interview by local Noriegian reporter and he stated that he loves playing with his Queen and avoid trading

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George
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Re: What do you think the value of the Queen should be ?

Post by George » Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:57 pm

Nordlandia wrote:«Two rooks roughly balance a queen, but with equal pawns, the rooks are usually stronger. This is especially true if there are weak pawns to attack, since the rooks can double up and attack them more times than the queen can defend. This is a typical example»

«The Queen is weaker than two Rooks if the hostile King is protected against Checks, otherwise it may be stronger. Ceteris paribus, it would appear that the Queen is trifle weaker than two Rooks»

«A natural assumption is that the two rooks will be stronger than the queen in the majority of positions; another is that a material balance is struck when the side with the queen has an extra pawn. I must admit that, when I examined top-flight games from my database, I was surprised to see that the queen outscored the rooks. I would have predicted a small edge for the rooks but in fact the side with the queen managed 55%»
I searched all of GM Carlsen games and none he has exchanged his Queen for two Rooks or a Rook+ Knights + pawn. When Carlsen was a kid just days after he drew with Kasparov at age 12 he was interviewed by a local Norwegian reporter and he stated that he loves playing with his Queen and avoid trading his Queen at all cost.

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