George wrote:lkaufman wrote:George wrote:lkaufman wrote:Modern Times wrote:Logically I would have thought so, because the human can't rely on memorised opening theory, but if that is true in practice I don't know.
Perhaps the next Komodo vs human match can be chess960.... not that that would answer the question, but it would be good nevertheless
Actually I have been thinking about a Komodo vs. GM (or IM) match in chess960. The problem is that it is totally obvious to me (as a former U.S. Open chess960 champion and a GM in normal chess) that the human will need a larger handicap in chess960. Human GMs are very familiar with all the typical ideas and pawn structures that arise from normal openings in standard chess, but are quite uncomfortable in typical chess960 positions. It's not just that they can't rely on memorized openings (although that's already a big problem); it's more the sheer weirdness of the starting positions. For a computer this makes no difference.
It seems the only easy handicap for chess960 is knight odds, where the computer chooses which knight to remove after the position is chosen. But even at chess960 knight odds is probably too much for a GM; maybe it's okay for an IM, although even that seems questionable to me since the break-even point for knight odds in normal chess appears to be in the 1900s FIDE. But odds of a pawn or two would be too position-dependent, and the Exchange appears not to be enough even for strong GMs in normal chess.
I'm open to suggestions. If I hear something that sounds reasonable and close to fair we might try to work it into our upcoming match on chess.com with IM Daniel Rensch. I feel he's a bit too strong for knight odds even at chess960 (at 45' plus inc).
I spoke with GM Nakamura and he said that with any two pawns Stockfish with the same time control is beating him but with a knight odd even with his super fast PC he is sharing wins with stockfish using the same time control when he beat GM Aronian back in 2009 to become the last Chess960 Champion. ==>
https://en.chessbase.com/post/che-claic ... ampionship
What was the time control in these Nakamura vs Stockfish handicap games? Are you saying that results at knight odds were about even? If this was at a non-blitz tc I am surprised. Chess960 must be even harder than I thought it was for humans.
I suppose that Chess960 is harder for humans and the more time you allow the Monster the deeper it calculates. The time control was 20 minutes + 5s game, and his latest PC is an Intel Core i7 Extreme Edition i7-4960X Hexa-core (6 Core) 3.60 GHz Processor.
PS: I don't know if he is better off playing at faster time control where the monster can hardly calculate as deep, like in these games ===>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k4V_LJTvqM
GM Wesley So lost terribly with Knight Odd Vs Stockfish in Bullet Chess, but he is rated over 100 points less than Nakamura in Bullet Chess, and this version of Stockfish is rated over 200 points above the Rybka that GM Nakamura played back in 2008
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu-pSaN62lc
Now compared to S L OW E R Time Control
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQDQNBEsJ80
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ue_woDfr9A
I was trying to compare an engine that could play chess960 as close to GM Nakamura, and I came with Hermann. Therefore I look at the last Chess960 position that GM Nakamura won the 2009 Chess960 Championship and I gave that position to Hermann to play as White and the Black position to Stockfish to play as Black, but I removed the a8 Knight immediately Hermann pick f4 as the best first move which GM Nakamura also played against GM Aronian but there was also something else that I noticed Hermann evaluated the advantage of White only as 2.45 when I removed the a8 Knight, but if I reverse the position and give it to Stockfish to start Stockfish evaluates his advantage much much greater which tells me that Hermann value of its knight at only 2.49 whereas Stockfish value its Knight higher than 3.23 ==>
[D]1rnkrbbq/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/NRNKRBBQ w - - 0 1[D]
FEN: 1rnkrbbq/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/NRNKRBBQ w - - 0 1
Stockfish 7 x64:
1/1 00:00 25 8k +3.23 e2-e4
2/2 00:00 54 18k +3.23 e2-e4 e7-e5 Na1-b3
3/3 00:00 90 30k +3.23 e2-e4 e7-e5 Na1-b3
4/4 00:00 136 45k +3.23 e2-e4 e7-e5 Na1-b3 g7-g6
5/5 00:00 215 72k +3.23 e2-e4 e7-e5 Na1-b3 g7-g6 f2-f4
6/6 00:00 302 101k +3.23 e2-e4 e7-e5 Na1-b3 g7-g6 f2-f4 e5xf4 Nc1-d3
7/7 00:00 427 142k +3.23 e2-e4 e7-e5 Na1-b3 g7-g6 f2-f4 e5xf4 Nc1-d3
8/8 00:00 576 192k +3.23 e2-e4 e7-e5 Na1-b3 g7-g6 f2-f4 e5xf4 Nc1-d3 f7-f5 e4xf5
9/11 00:00 900 225k +3.23 e2-e4 e7-e5 Na1-b3 g7-g6 f2-f4 e5xf4 Nc1-d3 f7-f5 e4xf5 Re8xe1+ Kd1xe1
10/13 00:00 1k 355k +3.23 e2-e4 e7-e5 Na1-b3 g7-g6 f2-f4 e5xf4 Nc1-d3 f7-f5 Bg1-d4 Bf8-g7 Bd4xg7 Qh8xg7 e4xf5
11/16 00:00 3k 618k +3.23 e2-e4 e7-e5 Na1-b3 g7-g6 g2-g3 f7-f5 e4xf5 g6xf5 f2-f4 e5-e4 c2-c3 Qh8-f6 Kd1-c2
12/17 00:00 13k 771k +3.23 e2-e4 e7-e5 Na1-b3 g7-g6 f2-f3 f7-f5 c2-c3 b7-b6 e4xf5 g6xf5 Kd1-c2 Nc8-d6 Bg1-f2 c7-c5
13/17 00:00 21k 823k +3.23 e2-e4 e7-e5 Na1-b3 g7-g6 f2-f3 f7-f5 c2-c3 b7-b6 Kd1-c2 Nc8-d6 Bf1-a6 f5xe4 f3xe4 c7-c5 g2-g3
14/17 00:00 32k 771k +3.23 e2-e4 e7-e5 Na1-b3 g7-g6 f2-f3 f7-f5 c2-c3 b7-b6 Kd1-c2 Nc8-d6 Bf1-a6 f5xe4 f3xe4 c7-c5
15/18 00:00 72k 747k +3.30 e2-e4 e7-e5 Na1-b3 g7-g6 g2-g3 b7-b6 f2-f4 e5xf4 g3xf4 f7-f5 e4-e5 Nc8-e7 d2-d4 Bf8-g7 Bf1-g2
16/20 00:00 299k 792k +3.24 f2-f4 f7-f6 g2-g3 b7-b6 e2-e4 e7-e5 c2-c3 Nc8-d6 d2-d4 g7-g5 d4xe5 f6xe5 f4-f5 h7-h5 Na1-c2 g5-g4
17/22 00:00 302k 797k +3.30 f2-f4 f7-f6 g2-g3 b7-b6 e2-e4 e7-e5 c2-c3 Nc8-d6 d2-d4 g7-g5 d4xe5 f6xe5 f4-f5 h7-h5 Na1-c2 g5-g4 b2-b3 Bf8-h6 Bg1-e3 Bh6xe3
18/22 00:00 304k 799k +3.30 f2-f4 f7-f6 g2-g3 b7-b6 e2-e4 e7-e5 c2-c3 Nc8-d6 d2-d4 g7-g5 d4xe5 f6xe5 f4-f5 h7-h5 Na1-c2 g5-g4 b2-b3 Bf8-h6 Bg1-e3 Bh6xe3 Nc2xe3
19/22 00:00 310k 804k +3.30 f2-f4 f7-f6 g2-g3 b7-b6 e2-e4 e7-e5 c2-c3 Nc8-d6 d2-d4 g7-g5 d4xe5 f6xe5 f4-f5 h7-h5 Na1-c2 g5-g4 b2-b3 Bf8-h6 Bg1-e3 Bh6xe3 Nc2xe3
20/26 00:00 533k 816k +3.24 f2-f4 f7-f6 g2-g3 b7-b6 e2-e4 e7-e5 c2-c3 Nc8-d6 d2-d4 g7-g5 d4xe5 f6xe5 f4-f5 h7-h5 Na1-c2 g5-g4 Bg1-e3 a7-a5 Be3-g5+ Bf8-e7 Bg5xe7+ Re8xe7 Nc2-e3 b6-b5 Kd1-c2 Kd8-c8
21/31 00:01 1,164k 808k +3.32 f2-f4 f7-f6 g2-g3 b7-b6 e2-e4 e7-e5 c2-c3 Nc8-d6 d2-d4 g7-g5 f4xe5 f6xe5 Na1-b3 h7-h5 Nc1-d3 e5xd4 c3xd4 Nd6-c4 Rb1-c1 Kd8-c8 e4-e5 Qh8-h7 Rc1-c2
22/31 00:02 2,282k 791k +3.28 f2-f4 f7-f6 g2-g3 b7-b6 e2-e4 e7-e5 c2-c3 Nc8-d6 d2-d4 g7-g5 f4xe5 f6xe5 Na1-b3 h7-h5 Nc1-d3 e5xd4 c3xd4 Nd6-c4 Rb1-c1 Kd8-c8 Bf1-e2 a7-a5 e4-e5 a5-a4 Nb3-d2 Nc4xd2 Kd1xd2
23/31+ 00:03 2,955k 779k +3.35 f2-f4
23/31 00:06 5,546k 801k +3.31 f2-f4 f7-f6 g2-g3 e7-e5 e2-e4 g7-g5 f4xe5 f6xe5 c2-c3 a7-a5 Na1-b3 b7-b6 d2-d4 Nc8-d6 Nc1-d3 e5xd4 c3xd4 Bf8-g7 e4-e5 Nd6-c4 Rb1-c1 Re8-f8 Qh1-e4 a5-a4 Nb3-d2 Nc4xd2 Kd1xd2 Bg8xa2
24/31 00:19 14,824k 758k +3.27 f2-f4 f7-f6 g2-g3 b7-b6 e2-e4 e7-e5 c2-c3 Nc8-d6 d2-d4 g7-g5 d4xe5 f6xe5 f4-f5 h7-h5 Na1-c2 g5-g4 b2-b3 a7-a5 Qh1-g2 Rb8-a8 Bg1-e3 Kd8-c8 Nc1-d3 Bf8-g7
25/31 00:30 23,796k 778k +3.29 f2-f4 f7-f6 g2-g3 b7-b6 e2-e4 e7-e5 c2-c3 Nc8-d6 Na1-c2 a7-a5 d2-d4 Bg8-f7 Bf1-d3 b6-b5 Qh1-f3 g7-g5 b2-b3 h7-h5 d4xe5 g5-g4 Qf3-e3 f6xe5 Qe3-a7 Rb8-c8 Qa7xa5
26/31 00:48 39,011k 802k +3.31 f2-f4 f7-f6 g2-g3 b7-b6 e2-e4 e7-e5 c2-c3 Nc8-d6 Na1-c2 a7-a5 d2-d4 g7-g6 Bf1-d3 Kd8-c8 Bg1-e3 Rb8-a8 b2-b3 Qh8-g7 Re1-f1 a5-a4 f4xe5 f6xe5 d4-d5 Bf8-e7 Nc1-e2 a4xb3 a2xb3
27/33- 01:11 58,043k 813k +3.24 f2-f4 f7-f6
Hermann 2.8 64 bit:
1/2 00:00 22 22k +2.49 e2-e4
2/3 00:00 43 43k +2.34 e2-e4 e7-e5
3/7 00:00 182 182k +2.41 e2-e4 e7-e5 f2-f3
3/7+ 00:00 234 234k +2.42 f2-f4 f7-f5 Bg1-d4
3/8 00:00 378 378k +2.45 f2-f4 e7-e5 f4xe5 Re8xe5
4/11 00:00 2k 1,580k +2.39 f2-f4 f7-f6 e2-e4 e7-e5 f4xe5 f6xe5
5/12 00:00 3k 3,310k +2.41 f2-f4 f7-f6 e2-e4 e7-e5 g2-g3
6/15 00:00 11k 678k +2.39 f2-f4 f7-f6 e2-e4 e7-e5 f4xe5 f6xe5
7/18 00:00 23k 731k +2.44 f2-f4 f7-f6 e2-e4 e7-e5 f4xe5 f6xe5 Na1-b3
8/22 00:00 58k 739k +2.40 f2-f4 f7-f6 e2-e4 e7-e5 f4xe5 f6xe5 Bg1-f2 Nc8-b6
9/25 00:00 159k 641k +2.46 f2-f4 f7-f6 e2-e4 e7-e5 f4xe5 f6xe5 Na1-b3 Nc8-b6 Bg1xb6 a7xb6
10/25 00:00 372k 701k +2.45 f2-f4 f7-f6 e2-e4 e7-e5 f4xe5 f6xe5 Na1-b3 g7-g6 Bf1-e2 Bg8-e6 Bg1-e3
11/27 00:01 882k 716k +2.44 f2-f4 f7-f6 e2-e4 e7-e5 f4xe5 f6xe5 Na1-b3 g7-g6 g2-g3 Bg8-e6 Bg1-c5 Bf8-h6
12/31 00:03 2,588k 710k +2.47 f2-f4 f7-f6 e2-e4 e7-e5 f4xe5 f6xe5 Na1-b3 g7-g6 Bf1-e2 Bf8-e7 Re1-f1 Nc8-b6 Bg1xb6 a7xb6
13/31 00:07 5,430k 735k +2.46 f2-f4 f7-f6 e2-e4 e7-e5 g2-g3 Bg8-f7 Qh1-f3 Nc8-b6 Na1-b3 Qh8-g8 Bg1xb6 a7xb6 Bf1-h3 Bf8-e7
14/37 00:25 17,955k 703k +2.47 f2-f4 f7-f6 e2-e4 e7-e5 g2-g3 Bg8-f7 Qh1-f3 c7-c5 Bf1-h3 b7-b6 f4xe5 Re8xe5 Bg1-e3 Nc8-e7 Na1-b3
15/39 00:54 39,998k 741k +2.46 f2-f4 f7-f6 e2-e4 e7-e5 f4xe5 f6xe5 Na1-b3 b7-b6 Bf1-a6 Nc8-d6 d2-d3 Bf8-e7 Bg1-e3 Bg8-e6 Nc1-e2 Re8-f8