Best (computer chess) opening

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Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Sat Aug 20, 2016 3:46 pm

1.d4 is weak, because black gets comfortable advantage after the strongest 1...c5 2.d5 (that is what computers play, but also theory suggests; 2.c3 or 2.e3 simply transform to a QGD with better black structure, 2.dc5, what I think is best white choice, gives full equality) e5 (I forgot the name of that opening, was it a Hungarian opening, but in the current setup I call it I-KID(Improved King's Indian Defence) 3. c4 d6 4. Nc3 g6 5. e4 Bg7 6. Bd3 Ne7:

[d]rnbqk2r/pp2npbp/3p2p1/2pPp3/2P1P3/2NB4/PP3PPP/R1BQK1NR w KQkq - 0 7

and, you migth want to analyse above position for as long as you want, I do not know how engines evaluate it, but, above only black has, sligth, but clear-cut advantage.

Why play 1.d5 only to get worse position with white?

Usual KID on 1.d4 with 1...Nf6 gives full equality or better play for black in most variations, though the single white defensive setup with f3,and possibly g4 and castling long away from the chain gives white some edge, not sure how big.

The f3 setup I have seen only in the games of Spassky and Petrosyan, but it is very strong indeed and what really should question mainline KID with 1...Nf6.

After 1.d4 c5, however, in the I-KID ( :) ), black is simply better in all lines, if white does not capture on the second move 2.dc5, which gives full equality.

That is why 1.d4 is, if not weak, certainly not the best possible move.

Would be very happy if someone manages to find a flaw in above analysis, or proves the position I posted does not favour black, but I think you will have very hard time at it. :)

PS. On a side note, it makes very much sense that 1.e4 is stronger than 1.d4. As kings usually castle short, the e4 pawn is closer to the king side than the d4 pawn, where it can attack, support other own pawns, etc.

While pieces move around easily, pawns are more or less a constant feature of the position, so it is very important where you got a pawn, closer to the king side or not.

jefk
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Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by jefk » Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:29 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:in the current setup I call it I-KID(Improved King's Indian Defence) 3. c4 d6 4. Nc3 g6 5. e4 Bg7 6. Bd3 Ne7:
[d]rnbqk2r/pp2npbp/3p2p1/2pPp3/2P1P3/2NB4/PP3PPP/R1BQK1NR w KQkq - 0 7
http://www.365chess.com/opening.php?m=1 ... 3.d6.e4.g6
jefk

jefk
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Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by jefk » Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:54 pm

ok in the above Czech Benoni, the knight is on f6 and
Bg7 is not yet played, but this is a detail.
It also can be an Old Benoni,
http://www.365chess.com/opening.php?m=9 ... .d6.Nc3.g6

closed center so the comp should know how to play,
but with a good book i don't think Komodo would
do that bad in such positions
jefk

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:07 am

jefk wrote:
ok in the above Czech Benoni, the knight is on f6 and
Bg7 is not yet played, but this is a detail.
It also can be an Old Benoni,
http://www.365chess.com/opening.php?m=9 ... .d6.Nc3.g6

closed center so the comp should know how to play,
but with a good book i don't think Komodo would
do that bad in such positions
Whether the black knigth is on f6 or e7 is not a detail, this decides who has the advantage. Nf6 is worse for black, Ne7 is better, as it supports f7-f5 thrust and the knigth does not come under attack by the bishop from g5, for example.

Neither the link to the Chech Benoni (thanks for the link), nor the link to the Old Benoni precisely reflect the position I posted, with Ne7 and Bg7.

I do not have an account for chesscom, do you have an idea how many games are there with precisely the diagrammed position I posted?

Black can not be even a iota worse ( I am actually certain black is better), as, for a KID-setup, white lacks the possibility to storm queenside with c4-c5, main white threat in the KID, as on c5 there is already a black pawn. Opening the b or a file for counter-attack takes time and is less efficient, black will develop significant momentum on the kingside during this period.

With Ne7 and Bg7, black controls firmly central e5 and f5 squares, so only black could win on the king side.

If black is better on the king side, center is closed and white has no immediate counterplay on the queen side, how could white be better?

I played this setup many times with Komodo as white, and black consistently gets better in the long run, but I should admit the position is very difficult to play for a human, with considerable tactics, as well as complicated.

And, what concerns closed positions, Komodo is undoubtedly better than SF, so I really trust black is better.

In each position there is always one best move, the theory of stylistic equivalents is simply wrong, there is always one best move; in the tsrting position, this is 1.e4, on 1.e4, this is 1...c5, on 1.d4, this is still 1...c5 (Nf6 is worse), on 1.Nf3, again 1...c5 is best, on 1.c4, 1...e5 is best, etc.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:11 am

jefk wrote:
ok in the above Czech Benoni, the knight is on f6 and
Bg7 is not yet played, but this is a detail.
It also can be an Old Benoni,
http://www.365chess.com/opening.php?m=9 ... .d6.Nc3.g6

closed center so the comp should know how to play,
but with a good book i don't think Komodo would
do that bad in such positions
Whether the black knigth is on f6 or e7 is not a detail, this decides who has the advantage. Nf6 is worse for black, Ne7 is better, as it supports f7-f5 thrust and the knigth does not come under attack by the bishop from g5, for example.

Neither the link to the Chech Benoni (thanks for the link), nor the link to the Old Benoni precisely reflect the position I posted, with Ne7 and Bg7.

I do not have an account for chesscom, do you have an idea how many games are there with precisely the diagrammed position I posted?

Black can not be even a iota worse ( I am actually certain black is better), as, for a KID-setup, white lacks the possibility to storm queenside with c4-c5, main white threat in the KID, as on c5 there is already a black pawn. Opening the b or a file for counter-attack takes time and is less efficient, black will develop significant momentum on the kingside during this period.

With Ne7 and Bg7, black controls firmly central e5 and f5 squares, so only black could win on the king side.

If black is better on the king side, center is closed and white has no immediate counterplay on the queen side, how could white be better?

I played this setup many times with Komodo as white, and black consistently gets better in the long run, but I should admit the position is very difficult to play for a human, with considerable tactics, as well as complicated.

And, what concerns closed positions, Komodo is undoubtedly better than SF, so I really trust black is better.

In each position there is always one best move, the theory of stylistic equivalents is simply wrong, there is always one best move; in the tsrting position, this is 1.e4, on 1.e4, this is 1...c5, on 1.d4, this is still 1...c5 (Nf6 is worse), on 1.Nf3, again 1...c5 is best, on 1.c4, 1...e5 is best, etc.

Henk
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Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by Henk » Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:40 am

After 1 Nf3 c5 white can play KIA and then it has no move c6 to secure a d5 pawn. So I doubt if c5 is best.

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:42 am

Henk wrote:After 1 Nf3 c5 white can play KIA and then it has no move c6 to secure a d5 pawn. So I doubt if c5 is best.
Please show a line.

jefk
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Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by jefk » Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:57 am

[quote="Lyudmil Tsvetkov"]
Whether the black knigth is on f6 or e7 is not a detail, Nf6 is worse for black, Ne7 is better, as it supports f7-f5 thrust the position is very difficult to play for a human, with considerable tactics, as well as complicated.
And, what concerns closed positions, Komodo is undoubtedly better than SF, so I really trust black is better.
[/quote]

maybe in practice Black has chances in a normal game,
but for very good players or in correspondence chess i
think White still has advantage; simply castling long
and a few other positional tricks

jef
jefk

jefk
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Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by jefk » Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:32 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: do not have an account for chesscom, do you have an idea how many games are there with precisely the diagrammed position I posted?
also have no account for chess365.com (chess.com is different),
but i have a little Gm database with games after 2000, ' kingbase'.
only 8 games, 6 won for White, one draw, and one lost for White.
NB the Noomen book gives the move 7.h4! after 6...Ne7.
And this indeed was played in these games, but also 7.f4.

In the games lost for White he played 7.Nge2?! and castled
short, a strategic mistake
[Event "TCh-SRB 1. League"]
[Site "Subotica SRB"]
[Date "2008.09.09"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Jeremic, Veljko"]
[Black "Novoselski, Zoran"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "A44"]
[WhiteElo "2503"]
[BlackElo "2388"]
[PlyCount "86"]
[EventDate "2008.09.01"]
1. d4 g6 2. c4 Bg7 3. Nc3 c5 4. d5 e5 5. e4 d6 6. Bd3 Ne7 7. Nge2 f5 8. f4 O-O 9. O-O Nd7 10. exf5 gxf5 11. fxe5 Nxe5 12. Bg5 Bf6 13. Bxf6 Rxf6 14. Ng3 Qf8 15. Qd2 Kh8 16. Nce2 Bd7 17. Nh5 Qh6 18. Qxh6 Rxh6 19. Nhf4 Rg8 20. a4 N7g6 21. b3 Nh4 22. Ng3 Ng4 23. Nfe2 Nxh2 24. Rf4 Ng6 25. Rxf5 Ne5 26. Be4 Bxf5 27. Nxf5 Rh3 28. Nf4 Nhf3+ 29. Kf2 Ng4+ 30. Ke2 Nd4+ 31. Nxd4 Re3+ 32. Kd2 cxd4 33. Bc2 Rf8 34. Rf1 Kg8 35. Bd1 Ne5 36. Rf2 a5 37. c5 dxc5 38. d6 c4 39. bxc4 Nxc4+ 40.
Kc1 Nxd6 41. Kb2 Nc4+ 42. Ka2 Ra3+ 43. Kb1 Rf6 0-1

And here's a recent game with 7.f4
[Event "TCh-CZE Extraliga 2014-15"]
[Site "Prague CZE"]
[Date "2015.03.29"]
[Round "11.5"]
[White "Cernousek, Lukas"]
[Black "Langner, L1."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A44"]
[WhiteElo "2453"]
[BlackElo "2370"]
[PlyCount "83"]
[EventDate "2014.11.01"]

1. d4 g6 2. c4 Bg7 3. Nc3 c5 4. d5 e5 5. e4 d6 6. Bd3 Ne7 7. f4 O-O 8. fxe5 Bxe5 9. Nf3 Bg4 10. Bg5 f6 11. Bh6 Rf7 12. Qd2 Bxf3 13. gxf3 g5 14. Ne2 Ng6 15. O-O-O Nd7 16. h4 Nxh4 17. f4 Bd4 18. Nxd4 cxd4 19. Rdf1 Ng6 20. e5 dxe5 21. fxg5 Qc7 22. Qc2 f5 23. Bxf5 Rxf5 24. Qxf5 Qxc4+ 25. Kb1 Qxd5 26. Rh2 Re8 27. Rfh1 Qf7 28. Qe4 Nc5 29. Qc2 Ne6 30. Rc1 Nef4 31. Qa4 Rd8 32. Rhc2 Qf5 33. Ka1 d3 34. Rc7 d2 35. Rd1 Ne6 36. Rd7 Rxd7 37. Qxd7 Ngf4 38. Qe8+ Nf8 39. Bxf8 Qxf8
40. Qxe5 Qb4 41. Qe8+ Kg7 42. Qd7+ 1-0
jefk

Henk
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Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by Henk » Sun Aug 21, 2016 1:28 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
Henk wrote:After 1 Nf3 c5 white can play KIA and then it has no move c6 to secure a d5 pawn. So I doubt if c5 is best.
Please show a line.
I don't know (yet). If black plays a Nc6 too maybe better play a grunfeld reversed. And if black plays e6 then maybe white better play some kind of a Benoni reversed with c4.

[d] rnbqkbnr/pp3ppp/4p3/2pp4/2P5/5NP1/PP1PPPBP/RNBQK2R b KQkq c3 0 4

White can also play 2.c4.

Actually I don't play Nf3 often for I used to play g3 or d3.
Last edited by Henk on Sun Aug 21, 2016 1:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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