Best (computer chess) opening

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Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Sun Aug 21, 2016 1:31 pm

jefk wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: Whether the black knigth is on f6 or e7 is not a detail, Nf6 is worse for black, Ne7 is better, as it supports f7-f5 thrust the position is very difficult to play for a human, with considerable tactics, as well as complicated.
And, what concerns closed positions, Komodo is undoubtedly better than SF, so I really trust black is better.
maybe in practice Black has chances in a normal game,
but for very good players or in correspondence chess i
think White still has advantage; simply castling long
and a few other positional tricks

jef
No, the position favours black, and that is the refutation of 1.d4.

White does not have time to castle long, black will already have played f7-f5, and maybe f4.

Did not you find any games with this position in the online database?

jefk
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Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by jefk » Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:08 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: Did not you find any games with this position in the online database?
replied to an earlier posting in this thread;

the mentioned move of Nge2 was not yet losing,
but when going for short castling (as Komodo also indicates)
it was a strategic mistake; the other games were
clear examples that the Benoni is bad for Black.
jefk

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:53 am

jefk wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: Did not you find any games with this position in the online database?
replied to an earlier posting in this thread;

the mentioned move of Nge2 was not yet losing,
but when going for short castling (as Komodo also indicates)
it was a strategic mistake; the other games were
clear examples that the Benoni is bad for Black.
It makes an impression that in your only 8 games from the database lower-rated players win with black, while much higher-rated players win with white.

On your mentioned, and as you said, recommended by noomen.ctg, 7.h4, black simply plays 7...h6, staying with advantage.

[d]rnbqk2r/pp2npb1/3p2pp/2pPp3/2P1P2P/2NB4/PP3PP1/R1BQK1NR w KQkq - 0 8

On 8.h5 g5, and white could draw at most with completely closed position.

Where is white advantage above?
What move is best for white?
Any games with this particular position in your database?

On 7.f4, as in the winning white game you posted, black plays, of course, not 7...0-0, which is weak, but 7...Nd7 (the place of the knigth is on e5, and not of the bishop):

[d]r1bqk2r/pp1nnpbp/3p2p1/2pPp3/2P1PP2/2NB4/PP4PP/R1BQK1NR w KQkq - 0 8

Where is the white advantage?
What move is best for white?
Any games in your database with this particular position?

Black is better.
8.f5 pushes things too far, on 8.Nf3, black could castle and try to push f7-f5 at some point, but black also always holds a secure draw by simply playing 8...f6, then h6 and g5, and position gets fully closed.

Black is better in all lines, but, even if you do not try to find out-of-the-world ambitious black moves, striving for advantage, black always has a secure draw by closing the position.

So, please tell me, where is the white advantage?

jefk
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Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by jefk » Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:39 am

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: On your mentioned, and as you said, recommended by noomen.ctg, 7.h4, black simply plays 7...h6, staying with advantage.
On 8.h5 g5, and white could draw at most with completely closed position.
Where is white advantage above? What move is best for white?

On 7.f4, as in the winning white game you posted, black plays, of course, not 7...0-0, which is weak, but 7...Nd7 (the place of the knigth is on e5, and not of the bishop):
Where is the white advantage? What move is best for white?
Any games in your database with this particular position?
8.f5 pushes things too far, on 8.Nf3, black could castle and try to push f7-f5 at some point, but black also always holds a secure draw by simply playing 8...f6, then h6 and g5, and position gets fully closed.
So, please tell me, where is the white advantage?
well i suggest you make a database yourself with GM moves,
to examine such positions; the average rating difference in those
six games i referred to was negligible btw.

The main reason -besides time (i might have a look later) that i don't want to look up -or analyze- the positions you mentioned above, is that they
are rather theoretical (therefore there also were not much games; in the variations you mentioned there will even be less games, and then by lower rated players i suspect) After 1.d4 c5?! 2.d5 d6 (or g6) White is not
always playing c4, but often Nc3 or 3.e4. Playing Nc3 saves a tempo
while getting hold of the e5 square, and a later 3..e5?! as in the
old Benoni would be weird (and bad).

jef

PS we can discuss endlessly about how to evaluate positions; there
are various methods and not allways the GM's would agree; anyway I
do agree that engines as Stockfish and Komodo not always find the right moves. But how to find the really best moves is another topic; if you
know it so well i suggest you take up correspondence chess and see
how far you come. You could also find maybe an engine programmer
who is willing to try out the parameters you suggested in your
(interesting) paper which i found here:
https://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com ... endium.pdf
2012 edition, maybe you would have some updates now;
but then you still would have to see if it would work in practice
for such an engine, it's often a matter of delicate tuning i guess
(not even talking about speed optimizations); or an engine
programmer may have a look at making -some of these- parameters
an UCI option for human tuning/experimenting; volunteers?
Maybe someone in Bulgaria ?
jefk

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:18 pm

jefk wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: On your mentioned, and as you said, recommended by noomen.ctg, 7.h4, black simply plays 7...h6, staying with advantage.
On 8.h5 g5, and white could draw at most with completely closed position.
Where is white advantage above? What move is best for white?

On 7.f4, as in the winning white game you posted, black plays, of course, not 7...0-0, which is weak, but 7...Nd7 (the place of the knigth is on e5, and not of the bishop):
Where is the white advantage? What move is best for white?
Any games in your database with this particular position?
8.f5 pushes things too far, on 8.Nf3, black could castle and try to push f7-f5 at some point, but black also always holds a secure draw by simply playing 8...f6, then h6 and g5, and position gets fully closed.
So, please tell me, where is the white advantage?
well i suggest you make a database yourself with GM moves,
to examine such positions; the average rating difference in those
six games i referred to was negligible btw.

The main reason -besides time (i might have a look later) that i don't want to look up -or analyze- the positions you mentioned above, is that they
are rather theoretical (therefore there also were not much games; in the variations you mentioned there will even be less games, and then by lower rated players i suspect) After 1.d4 c5?! 2.d5 d6 (or g6) White is not
always playing c4, but often Nc3 or 3.e4. Playing Nc3 saves a tempo
while getting hold of the e5 square, and a later 3..e5?! as in the
old Benoni would be weird (and bad).

jef

PS we can discuss endlessly about how to evaluate positions; there
are various methods and not allways the GM's would agree; anyway I
do agree that engines as Stockfish and Komodo not always find the right moves. But how to find the really best moves is another topic; if you
know it so well i suggest you take up correspondence chess and see
how far you come. You could also find maybe an engine programmer
who is willing to try out the parameters you suggested in your
(interesting) paper which i found here:
https://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com ... endium.pdf
2012 edition, maybe you would have some updates now;
but then you still would have to see if it would work in practice
for such an engine, it's often a matter of delicate tuning i guess
(not even talking about speed optimizations); or an engine
programmer may have a look at making -some of these- parameters
an UCI option for human tuning/experimenting; volunteers?
Maybe someone in Bulgaria ?
I do not want to push you in any way: please check your database and report back when you have time.

However, going back to your suggested main line( which was also played in most games, and recommended by noomen.ctg), after 7.h4 h6, white can not play g4, does not make any sense, can not play f4, playing f4 and h4 at the same time does not make any sense, Nf3 is met by f5 with black advantage, so white is left with an only option (also suggested by engines, onliness somehow suggests white position is not too good), 8.h5, as black already threatens f5. On 8.h5 black replies 8...g5, and we get the following position:

[d]rnbqk2r/pp2npb1/3p3p/2pPp1pP/2P1P3/2NB4/PP3PP1/R1BQK1NR w KQkq - 0 9

Position is fully closed, if white does not play g4, black will push f5 with advantage. So white is left with only moves and has to close the position to avoid worse.

This means, black has achieved a draw at worse at move 8!
Anything better than that? You do not have to toil for it, you have a secure draw at move 8. Does not this suggest 1.d4 is weak?

Nowhere in the 1.e4 line black gets a secure draw by move 8.

On 1.d4 c5 2. d5 e5 3.Nc3 is weak, black has lots of options, playing g6,Bg7,f5, etc.

So why not simply face the obvious truth 1.d4 is a weak move?

jefk
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Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by jefk » Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:34 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: On 1.d4 c5 2. d5 e5 3.Nc3 is weak, black has lots of options, playing g6,Bg7,f5, .
Black cannot play 3...Bg7 if g6 has not been played.
In the other situations White simply continues with 4.e4 and
has the advantage; also if Black plays 3...d6.

For the latter position i can look up some games ;
later maybe; you can do the same no ?
:)

jef

PS 1.e4 is slightly worse than d4, first of all there are the
Marshall and Berlin defenses; and for advanced players
Najdorf also can equalize and is dangerous for White.
With 1.d4 the Moscow Semi-slav is strong for Black
but White can avoid that by going for the Catalan.
With good positional knowledge and sometimes
long games with a lot of manoeuvring he/she
should be able to get good chances (but not
a forced win ofcourse; because chess is a draw).
jefk

Henk
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Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by Henk » Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:54 pm

[pgn]
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "?"]
[Round "-"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[FEN "r1bqk2r/pp1nnpbp/3p2p1/2pPp3/2P1PP2/2NB4/PP4PP/R1BQK1NR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]

{--------------
r . b q k . . r
p p . n n p b p
. . . p . . p .
. . p P p . . .
. . P . P P . .
. . N B . . . .
P P . . . . P P
R . B Q K . N R
white to play
--------------}
1. Nf3 O-O 2. O-O f5 3. Ng5 Nb6 4. fxe5 Bxe5 5. Qe1 h6 6. Nf3 Bg7 7. Qh4
*
[/pgn]

jefk
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Contact:

Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by jefk » Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:45 pm

Henk wrote: [FEN "r1bqk2r/pp1nnpbp/3p2p1/2pPp3/2P1PP2/2NB4/PP4PP/R1BQK1NR w KQkq - 0 1"]
Nf3 O-O 2. O-O f5 3. Ng5 Nb6 4. fxe5 Bxe5 5. Qe1 h6 6. Nf3 Bg7 7. Qh4
]
well you're right in this situation castling short seems ok
and there's a significant advantage for White i think.

My point is that White can play better than c4, which
results in this 'Tsvetkov' position by playing Nc3 instead of c4.
And then for example (Old Benoni)
1.d4 c5 2.d5 e5? 3.e4 g6 4.Nc3!! d6 5.Bd3 Bg7 6.f4 Ng8e7
7.fxe5! Bxe5 8.Ng1f3 Bg7 9.Bf4 O-O 10.Qd2 Bg4 11.O-O-O
And Black is simply crushed.,

jef
www.bookbuilder.nl

carldaman
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Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by carldaman » Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:38 am

jefk wrote:
Henk wrote: [FEN "r1bqk2r/pp1nnpbp/3p2p1/2pPp3/2P1PP2/2NB4/PP4PP/R1BQK1NR w KQkq - 0 1"]
Nf3 O-O 2. O-O f5 3. Ng5 Nb6 4. fxe5 Bxe5 5. Qe1 h6 6. Nf3 Bg7 7. Qh4
]
well you're right in this situation castling short seems ok
and there's a significant advantage for White i think.

My point is that White can play better than c4, which
results in this 'Tsvetkov' position by playing Nc3 instead of c4.
And then for example (Old Benoni)
1.d4 c5 2.d5 e5? 3.e4 g6 4.Nc3!! d6 5.Bd3 Bg7 6.f4 Ng8e7
7.fxe5! Bxe5 8.Ng1f3 Bg7 9.Bf4 O-O 10.Qd2 Bg4 11.O-O-O

And Black is simply crushed.,

jef
www.bookbuilder.nl
Your 6.f4 above looks dubious in light of 6...exf4!, giving life to the B on g7 [instead of 6...Ne7(?)], and Black could follow up with 7.Bxf4 Nf6!? 8.Nf3 0-0 and if 9.0-0 Bg4 with an active position.

Maybe 6.Nf3 is better, followed by 7.Nd2!? and Nc4, but then Black can get f5-f4 in with a messy position where White has to avoid castling Kingside.


In Lyudmil's original move order,

1.d4 c5 2.d5 e5 3.c4 d6 4. Nc3 g6 5. e4 Bg7 6. Bd3 Ne7, Black can try to counter the h4 idea with h6 as Lyudmil pointed out

(Both move orders are classified as a 'Semi-Benoni' - A44)

CL

jefk
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Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by jefk » Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:53 am

carldaman wrote: 1.d4 c5 2.d5 e5? 3.e4 g6 4.Nc3!! d6 5.Bd3 Bg7 6.f4 Ng8e7
7.fxe5! Bxe5 8.Ng1f3 Bg7 9.Bf4 O-O 10.Qd2 Bg4 11.O-O-O


Your 6.f4 above looks dubious in light of 6...exf4!, giving life to the B on g7 [instead of 6...Ne7(?)], and Black could follow up with 7.Bxf4 Nf6!? 8.Nf3 0-0 and if 9.0-0 Bg4 with an active position.
active position ? White simply plays 10.h3 and is better,
open f line for the rook. 6.f4 is quite good also in the statistics which
you can see in the second ref i give further below.
carldaman wrote: Maybe 6.Nf3 is better, followed by 7.Nd2!? and Nc4, but then Black can get f5-f4 in with a messy position where White has to avoid castling Kingside.
would also be good for White (but Nc4 can wait, depending whether
Black plays Nge7 or simply Nf6; in the latter case Nh5 is an possibility,
in the former f5 is followed by exf5 and White is better again.
carldaman wrote: In Lyudmil's original move order,
1.d4 c5 2.d5 e5 3.c4 d6 4. Nc3 g6 5. e4 Bg7 6. Bd3 Ne7, Black can try to counter the h4 idea with h6 as Lyudmil pointed out
(Both move orders are classified as a 'Semi-Benoni' - A44)
CL
it's not another move order, it's another variations, Lyudmil
plays c4, whereas i think first Nc3 is better Yes it becomes
a semi-Benoni after White plays e4, but White also can first play
Nc3, which still is old Benoni.
http://www.365chess.com/opening.php?m=6 ... .d5.e5.Nc3
Anyway then with e4 it will transpose to semi-Benoni.. :)
http://www.365chess.com/opening.php?m=9 ... .d6.Nc3.g6

NB (you and L.T) you don't have to be chess365 member
to see statistics , and even some games in the above link
Simply above right click on game list. Maybe you can find
some games with h6 after h4. In the statistics h4 scores
even better than f4 but that might be wrong indeed.

jef

www.bookbuilder.nl
jefk

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