Best (computer chess) opening

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Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:38 am

jefk wrote:
carldaman wrote: 1.d4 c5 2.d5 e5? 3.e4 g6 4.Nc3!! d6 5.Bd3 Bg7 6.f4 Ng8e7
7.fxe5! Bxe5 8.Ng1f3 Bg7 9.Bf4 O-O 10.Qd2 Bg4 11.O-O-O


Your 6.f4 above looks dubious in light of 6...exf4!, giving life to the B on g7 [instead of 6...Ne7(?)], and Black could follow up with 7.Bxf4 Nf6!? 8.Nf3 0-0 and if 9.0-0 Bg4 with an active position.
active position ? White simply plays 10.h3 and is better,
open f line for the rook. 6.f4 is quite good also in the statistics which
you can see in the second ref i give further below.
carldaman wrote: Maybe 6.Nf3 is better, followed by 7.Nd2!? and Nc4, but then Black can get f5-f4 in with a messy position where White has to avoid castling Kingside.
would also be good for White (but Nc4 can wait, depending whether
Black plays Nge7 or simply Nf6; in the latter case Nh5 is an possibility,
in the former f5 is followed by exf5 and White is better again.
carldaman wrote: In Lyudmil's original move order,
1.d4 c5 2.d5 e5 3.c4 d6 4. Nc3 g6 5. e4 Bg7 6. Bd3 Ne7, Black can try to counter the h4 idea with h6 as Lyudmil pointed out
(Both move orders are classified as a 'Semi-Benoni' - A44)
CL
it's not another move order, it's another variations, Lyudmil
plays c4, whereas i think first Nc3 is better Yes it becomes
a semi-Benoni after White plays e4, but White also can first play
Nc3, which still is old Benoni.
http://www.365chess.com/opening.php?m=6 ... .d5.e5.Nc3
Anyway then with e4 it will transpose to semi-Benoni.. :)
http://www.365chess.com/opening.php?m=9 ... .d6.Nc3.g6

NB (you and L.T) you don't have to be chess365 member
to see statistics , and even some games in the above link
Simply above right click on game list. Maybe you can find
some games with h6 after h4. In the statistics h4 scores
even better than f4 but that might be wrong indeed.

jef

www.bookbuilder.nl
Man, do not be pathetic.

Please do not discuss about this and that, but just tell me straigth to the point:

[d]rnbqk2r/pp2npb1/3p3p/2pPp1pP/2P1P3/2NB4/PP3PP1/R1BQK1NR w KQkq - 0 9

- is the above position I posted and am reposting now, which is crucial for the line, a dead draw or not?
- how can white possibly improve on its play? (you suggest 7.h4 is best for white, and I am showing you in 2 moves' time black has at least a secure draw)
- is not a dead drawn position on move 8 a big success for the black player, as well as a weighty argument 1.d4 is very far from optimal?

You say, well, white can improve by first playing Nc3.
In the line 1.d4 c5 2.d5 e5 3.Nc3, as I said, black plays g6, and then fianchettoes the bishop:

[d]rnbqkbnr/pp1p1p1p/6p1/2pPp3/8/2N5/PPP1PPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 4

Black is quite comfortable here, in any case more comfortable than in the c4 line

The point of the discussion is not to quibble, but to show that there are moves and better moves. 1.d4 certainly is not the best move.

Are you aware what the last 3 world champions (Carlsen excluded, he just seems to want to play chess, originally, not following any rules) consitently played?

Fischer considered 1.e4 best and almost always played 1.e4
Kasparov considered 1.e4 best and almost always played 1.e4
Karpov always preferred to start with 1.e4

I think this should be telling in a way.

Not only that, but 1.d4 is only the 3-rd best possible move: 1.c4 is also stronger than 1.d4, if white also places a pawn on e4.

And indeed, Fischer played from time to time 1.c4, but almost never 1.d4
Kasparov played from time to time 1.c4, but almost never 1.d4

Those players seem to kind of know their business, and also they are reputed great theoreticians, theory actually starts with Fischer and Kasparov, do not you think?


PS. We are talking here about the best move with perfect play, and not about human performance statistics.
I will tell you why 1.d4 performs well in terms of stats: because after 1.d4 there are far too many weak black replies, which leave white with advantage:
-1...d5 leaves white with an edge
-1...Nf6, followed by 2...e6, leading to the Nimzovich or the Queen's Indian, leave white with an edge
-mainline KID, with 1...Nf6, with optimal play, migth still leave white with some edge, though most lines here favour only black, etc.

So, we must make a distinction: 1.d4 might have good or even better performance in terms of stats, but that is only because on 1.d4 there are too many non-optimal replies, however, in terms of perfect play and seeking for the optimal move, 1.d4 comes in only third after 1.e4 and 1.c4

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:53 am

OK, I see you have transferred your firepower now to Nc3 without c4.

But I wonder why you always pick weak moves for black?

In your Nc3 main line, after 1.d4 c5 2.d5 e5 3.e4 g6 4.Nc3 d6 5. Bd3 Bg7 6.f4, Nge7, very similar to the c4 line, is a weak move, as pointed out, on e5 should land a black knight, and not the bishop, those are simply standard setups, so black plays 6...Nd7:

[d]r1bqk1nr/pp1n1pbp/3p2p1/2pPp3/4PP2/2NB4/PPP3PP/R1BQK1NR w KQkq - 0 7

Take all your time with analysis and cross-checking of this position, but, be sure, above only black could have an advantage.

jefk
Posts: 394
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:07 pm
Location: the Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by jefk » Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:34 pm

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: But I wonder why you always pick weak moves for black?
Take all your time with analysis and cross-checking of this position, but, be sure, above only black could have an advantage.
your views on evaluation are known to be controversial; but you
are not an engine, you are human (not playing much (Fide) rated
games) so there's no way to check the validity of you statement(s).
Sure, engines as K10 and SF still can be a bit wrong; but why
should your judgements be better ? Only maybe in some positions,
after some long (computer aided) analysis.

Do you have any validation to confirm your claims in this situation (that Black is better in this
Semi-Benoni) ? complete games ? A private engine ? MC analysis with F15 ? Your wife , sons,
nephews, aunt, and the Bulgarian chess federation analyzing the position for a whole night ?
Or similar; you know what ? Lets simply continue this posting
as a fun correspondence game (about max 3 days per
move, but time forfeit only after eg 10 days no response).

oh.. and ofcourse after your Nd7 i simply play Nf3.
(waiting! )
:)

jef

http://www.lulu.com/shop/http://www.lul ... 28341.html
jefk

CID
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun May 29, 2016 11:40 pm

Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by CID » Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:17 pm

Tsvetkov,the last 3 world champions (Carlsen excluded)are:Anand,Kramnik and Kasparov.
Are you really chess player ? :shock:

carldaman
Posts: 1740
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:13 am

Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by carldaman » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:04 am

jefk wrote:
carldaman wrote: 1.d4 c5 2.d5 e5? 3.e4 g6 4.Nc3!! d6 5.Bd3 Bg7 6.f4 Ng8e7
7.fxe5! Bxe5 8.Ng1f3 Bg7 9.Bf4 O-O 10.Qd2 Bg4 11.O-O-O


Your 6.f4 above looks dubious in light of 6...exf4!, giving life to the B on g7 [instead of 6...Ne7(?)], and Black could follow up with 7.Bxf4 Nf6!? 8.Nf3 0-0 and if 9.0-0 Bg4 with an active position.
active position ? White simply plays 10.h3 and is better,
open f line for the rook. 6.f4 is quite good also in the statistics which
you can see in the second ref i give further below.
carldaman wrote: Maybe 6.Nf3 is better, followed by 7.Nd2!? and Nc4, but then Black can get f5-f4 in with a messy position where White has to avoid castling Kingside.
would also be good for White (but Nc4 can wait, depending whether
Black plays Nge7 or simply Nf6; in the latter case Nh5 is an possibility,
in the former f5 is followed by exf5 and White is better again.
carldaman wrote: In Lyudmil's original move order,
1.d4 c5 2.d5 e5 3.c4 d6 4. Nc3 g6 5. e4 Bg7 6. Bd3 Ne7, Black can try to counter the h4 idea with h6 as Lyudmil pointed out
(Both move orders are classified as a 'Semi-Benoni' - A44)
CL
it's not another move order, it's another variations, Lyudmil
plays c4, whereas i think first Nc3 is better Yes it becomes
a semi-Benoni after White plays e4, but White also can first play
Nc3, which still is old Benoni.
http://www.365chess.com/opening.php?m=6 ... .d5.e5.Nc3
Anyway then with e4 it will transpose to semi-Benoni.. :)
http://www.365chess.com/opening.php?m=9 ... .d6.Nc3.g6

NB (you and L.T) you don't have to be chess365 member
to see statistics , and even some games in the above link
Simply above right click on game list. Maybe you can find
some games with h6 after h4. In the statistics h4 scores
even better than f4 but that might be wrong indeed.

jef

www.bookbuilder.nl
Jef,

Most Benoni players would drool over an open diagonal for their dark square Bishop, and in most Benonis the Black light square Bishop is also locked out of play after white plays a timely h3 to deny it g4; here, that is not a problem and he can get Bg4 in, as B for a Kn that covers e5 is a good trade for Black.

If you want to play f4 in that line, might as well do it on move 5. I don't like 5.Bd3 that much either and White has other more promising moves, including 5.f4!?.

(You are right, of course, that those are different variations, rather than move orders - I didn't mean to imply that both lines led to the same position. I do tend to think in terms of move orders, and sometimes I'll refer to variations as 'move orders', even if it's technically incorrect to do so.)

I agree Nc3 is better than playing c4 vs these Old/Semi-Benoni set-ups, if White has that choice. This reminds of a time 25-30 years ago when the Modern Benoni was all the rage and many strong players were playing it just because it was "fashionable", and were not deterred by the constant pummeling they endured on the Black side. I could never fully understand, why Black would go into an opening where they would willingly play exd5, allowing cxd5, which cleared the c4 square for the White Knight (or Bishop), with dire consequences for Black's position.

I remember trying in vain to persuade my friends that it was a dubious idea and they should not play by rote just because the MB was a favorite of GMs. Now fast-forward 10-15 years and the Modern Benoni gets relegated to the dustbin of "fashionable" GM openings. :) The onset of the computer era no doubt helped open some eyes...

jefk
Posts: 394
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:07 pm
Location: the Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by jefk » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:08 am

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: theory actually starts with Fischer and Kasparov, do not you think?
Nope, Fischer had no computer, and hardly any strong seconds;
as for the Russians, well yes they did opening analysis.
e4 is a sharp move and also suitable for beginners
like you; but i don't think your analysis of c4 and d4
is correct; neither do you already know the way to draw
against e4 (Giuoco Piano also is not threat for B i think).

jef
https://www.iccf.com/player?id=371182

PS so are you willing to take up my correspondence challenge
or not ? NB i did manage to find a(n amateur) chess player
named Tsvetkov, also Bulgarian, but he is not Lyudmil btw.
jefk

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Best (computer chess) opening

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:51 am

jefk wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: theory actually starts with Fischer and Kasparov, do not you think?
Nope, Fischer had no computer, and hardly any strong seconds;
as for the Russians, well yes they did opening analysis.
e4 is a sharp move and also suitable for beginners
like you; but i don't think your analysis of c4 and d4
is correct; neither do you already know the way to draw
against e4 (Giuoco Piano also is not threat for B i think).

jef
https://www.iccf.com/player?id=371182

PS so are you willing to take up my correspondence challenge
or not ? NB i did manage to find a(n amateur) chess player
named Tsvetkov, also Bulgarian, but he is not Lyudmil btw.
It is pointless to discuss any further, as you start getting too personal.

Truth is, you did not manage to refute a single of my lines.

Another obvious truth is, the best theoretician is the best-playing player, and Fischer and Kasparov are definitely best-playing players.

@ Mr. Catalin Dobrin: man, get down to Earth, Kramnik and Anand have never been real world champions, all the way through 2009 Kasparov certainly played stronger than both, and after that year Carlsen certainly was stronger. Official title means nothing, of course Morphy also belongs to the WC league, who cares he has no official title, look at his games, and look at his performance.

Chess is not a physical sport, for everything to depend on current form and new champions to be invested every single year, almost every new chess champion is some 20 years ahead of his time (20 years to catch up with him).

PS. Just to mention, that on 7.Nf3 in the Nc3 without prior c4 position, without searching for deeper moves, black has the simple drawing setup I already showed you by playing f6, and fully blocking the position on the king side, with, NB, the additional advantage that white has not played c4, so black has counter-attacking chances on the queen side with a6,b5, etc.

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