deep.09

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jhellis3
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Re: deep.09

Post by jhellis3 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:02 pm

Just do some deep analysis on this position.... should tell you all you need to know:

[d]r2r4/8/2p1k3/p2bPp1p/Pp1Q1PpP/1P1P2K1/2P5/4R3 b - -

Dann Corbit
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Re: deep.09

Post by Dann Corbit » Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:04 pm

jhellis3 wrote:Why do you keep playing bad moves for white? I already showed you 1 improvement in my previous post.

I really don't like having to repeat things, but I will do it once more (please not again).....

[d]4r3/4r3/2p1k3/p1pbPp1p/Pp1p1PpP/1P1PR3/1KPQ4/4R3 b - -

Qf5 Nxf5 gxf5 Rg3 h5 Re2 Re7 Re1 Rge8 Re3

The point is that the black king can not move from e6 because it allows white to play e6.


If you really must play it out, we can do that.... but with a little work on your end, I think you find the study is very likely flawed.
As far as repeating yourself, my wife gets mad at me too for making her repeat herself. I guess I have a bad attention span or something. Hence I apologize for that.

I think you are probably right, and it seems you play chess even better than matefinder, which is remarkable.

Matefinder plays approximately the same sequence that you do, but matefinder does not see any progress being made. Note that all of the last ce values are 575 (and they look like that throughout every search).

Starting from the bottom is your line (which matches what matefinder chose for the most part).

[d]4r3/4r3/2p1k3/p1pbPp1p/Pp1p1PpP/1P1P2R1/1KPQ4/4R3 w - - acd 56; acs 1974; bm Kc1; seq 6w; ce 575; pm Kc1; pv Kc1 Rd7 Kd1 Rg7 Ke2 Kd7 Kf2 Ke6 Rgg1 Rg6 Qc1 Rgg8 Rg3 Re7 Qd2 Reg7 Qe2 Re8 Rgg1 Rg6 Kg3 Kd7 Ref1 Kc7 Qd1 Kd7 Qd2 Re7 Qf2 Ke6 Qe1 Rg8 Qe2 Bf3 Qd2 Rg6 Re1 Bd5 Qe2 Re8 Rgf1 Kd7 Qf2 Ree6 Qd2 Kc7 Ra1 Re8 Qe1 Re7 Rf2 Rg8 Rd2 Ree8 Rh2 Kd7;

[d]6r1/4r3/2p1k3/p1pbPp1p/Pp1p1PpP/1P1P2R1/1KPQR3/8 w - - acd 65; acs 3090; bm Re1; c3 "Re1"; seq 5w; ce 575; pm Re1; pv Re1 Reg7 Kc1 Rg6 Qh2 Re8 Kd2 Rg7 Qg1 Rd7 Qf2 Rg8 Qe2 Rdg7 Kd1 Rg6 Qf2 R6g7 Ke2 Re8 Reg1 Kd7 Kd2 Rg6 Re1 Ke6 Rgg1 Rg7 Qe2 Rg6 Rg3 Reg8 Qd1 R6g7 Reg1 Re8 Qe1 Reg8 Ke2 Rg6 Rf1 Re8 Kf2 Reg8 Qe2 Re8 Rgg1 Kd7 Kg3 Kc7 Qd1 Kd7 Qe1 Re7 Rf2 Re8 Re2 Ke6 Qf1 Kd7 Rf2;

[d]6r1/4r3/2p1k3/p1pbPp1p/Pp1p1PpP/1P1P2R1/1KPQ4/4R3 b - - acd 64; acs 2738; bm Reg7; c3 "Rge8"; seq 5b; ce -575; pm Reg7; pv Reg7 Kc1 Rg6 Qh2 Re8 Kd2 Rg7 Qg1 Rd7 Qf2 Rg8 Reg1 Re8 Ke2 Rg8 Qe1 Rdg7 Kf2 Rg6 Qe2 Re8 Re1 Reg8 Kg1 Bf3 Qf2 R6g7 Kh2 Bd5 Reg1 Rg6 Qd2 Kd7 Re1 Ke6 Qe2 Kd7 Qf2 Re8 Rgg1 Rge6 Kg3 Rg8 Qe2 Ke8 Rc1 Kd7 Rgf1 Kc7 Qd2 Kd7 Ra1 Rgg6 Qd1 Re8 Qe1 Kc7 Qf2 Ree6 Rae1 Rg8;

[d]6r1/6r1/2p1k3/p1pbPp1p/Pp1p1PpP/1P1P2R1/1KPQ3R/8 w - - acd 67; acs 1591; bm Re2; c3 "Re2"; seq 4w; ce 575; pm Re2; pv Re2 Rg6 Re1 Re8 Qh2 Reg8 Kc1 Re8 Kd2 Rg7 Qg1 Rd7 Qf2 Rg8 Qe2 Rdg7 Kd1 Rg6 Qf2 R8g7 Qf1 Rg8 Kd2 Re8 Qf2 Rgg8 Rgg1 Rg7 Qe2 Rg6 Rg3 Rg7 Qd1 Rd8 Reg1 Re8 Qe1 Reg8 Ke2 Re7 Kf2 Reg7 Qe2 Rg6 Qf1 Re8 Qc1 Ra8 Re1 Rgg8 Qb2 Rab8 Rgg1 Rbe8 Qc1 Bf3 Rg3 Ra8 Qd2 Rae8 Re;

[d]6r1/6r1/2p1k3/p1pbPp1p/Pp1p1PpP/1P1P2R1/1KPQR3/8 b - - acd 66; acs 2139; bm Rf8; c3 "Re7"; seq 4b; ce -575; pm Rf8; pv Rf8 Kc1 Re8 Re1 Rge7 Qf2 Rd7 Kd2 Rg8 Qe2 Rdg7 Kd1 Rg6 Qf2 R8g7 Qf1 Rg8 Kd2 Re8 Qf2 Rgg8 Rgg1 Rg7 Qe2 Rg6 Rg3 Rg7 Qd1 Rd8 Reg1 Re8 Qe1 Reg8 Ke2 Re7 Kf2 Reg7 Qe2 Rg6 Qf1 Re8 Qc1 Rb8 Qd2 Rg7 Rf1 Rd7 Qe1 Rg8 Rgg1 Re7 Kg3 Kd7 Qf2 Ke6 Qd2 Rg6 Qe1 Rg8 Rf2 Reg7 Q;

[d]6r1/6r1/2p1k2p/p1pbPp2/Pp1p1PpP/1P1P3R/1KPQ3R/8 w - - acd 65; acs 2185; bm Rg3; c3 "Rg3"; seq 3w; ce 582; pm Rg3; pv Rg3 h5 Qe1 Re8 Re2 Rgg8 Qg1 Re7 Qf2 Rge8 Re1 Rg7 Qe2 Kd7 Rgg1 Be6 Ra1 Kc7 Rab1 Rgg8 Qe1 Bd5 Kc1 Kd7 Qf2 Bf3 Kb2 Ke6 Qg3 Bd5 Kc1 Kd7 Qe1 Bf7 Kd2 Kc7 Rg3 Rg6 Ke2 Bd5 Qf2 Be6 Qh2 Bd5 Kf2 Reg8 Re1 Be6 Ke2 Rd8 Qf2 Kd7 Rgg1 Rg7 Qf1 Rdg8 Rg3 Bd5 Qg1 Rg6 Qh2 Re8;

[d]6r1/6r1/2p1k2p/p1pbPp2/Pp1p1PpP/1P1P2R1/1KPQ3R/8 b - - acd 62; acs 80; bm h5; c3 "h5"; seq 3b; ce -575; pm h5; pv h5 Re2 Rg6 Re1 Re8 Qh2 Reg8 Kc1 Re8 Kd2 Rg7 Qg1 Rd7 Qf2 Rg8 Qe2 Rdg7 Kd1 Rg6 Qf2 Rf8 Kd2 Re8 Rgg1 Rg7 Qh2 Rd7 Rc1 Rg8 Qf2 Rdg7 Qe2 Bf3 Qf1 Rg6 Qf2 R6g7 Rce1 Bd5 Qe2 Rd7 Kc1 Rdg7 Rg3 Re7 Kb2 Kd7 Qf2 Ke6 Qf1 Reg7 Qg1 Rf8 Kc1 Re8 Qf2 Reg8 Rf1 Rd8 Rgg1 Rdg8 Q;

[d]6r1/6r1/2p1k1pp/p1pbPq2/Pp1p1PpP/1P1P2NR/1KPQ3R/8 w - - acd 59; acs 3053; bm Nxf5; c3 "Nxf5"; seq 2w; ce 582; pm Nxf5; pv Nxf5 gxf5 Rg3 h5 Qe1 Re8 Re2 Rgg8 Qg1 Re7 Qf2 Rge8 Re1 Rg7 Qe2 Rd7 Rb1 Rg7 Qe1 Rgg8 Ra1 Kd7 Rg1 Bf3 Rb1 Ke6 Qg3 Bd5 Kc1 Rg6 Qe1 Rgg8 Kd2 Rg7 Qf2 Rd8 Qe2 Rdg8 Rbe1 Bf3 Qf1 Bd5 Rg3 Rf7 Qf2 Rd7 Qe2 Rgg7 Kc1 Rgf7 Qf2 Rg7 Qd2 Rge7 Kb2 Rg7 Qd1 Rgf7 Rgg1 Rg7 Qe2;
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

jhellis3
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Re: deep.09

Post by jhellis3 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:13 pm

I think you are probably right, and it seems you play chess even better than matefinder, which is remarkable.
Lol, nah I am just much more willing to give away material for no immediate gain. Generally, not a wise decision... :D

White does have to take a little care of the position of his pieces when placing the rook on E3/E4 in order to ensure that capturing with a pawn or the bishop does not end well for Black, but that is about it. And it is pretty easy to do.

If Black could get the King off of e6 and the Bishop on e6 in one move, it could hold. But as the saying goes, "in chess we take turns."

peter
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Full name: Peter Martan

Re: deep.09

Post by peter » Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:29 pm

jhellis3 wrote: I'm not really in the business of hand-holding though.
jhellis3 wrote:Just do some deep analysis on this position.... should tell you all you need to know
Please don't get me wrong, no offense against the progammer of MateFinder meant, a SF-derivative I like very much, but hand- holding is neither your nor my business.
I don't see any sense in giving positions without lines showing how to reach them from other postions in question.
You can start new puzzles with new positions of course, but to prove a win or a draw from one position by a second one, you have to connect the two of them by moves.
Chess is not about positions alone, it's about positions and moves
:)
Peter.

jhellis3
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Re: deep.09

Post by jhellis3 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:37 pm

YOU CAPTURE THE BLACK D4-PAWN WITH THE WHITE ROOK WHICH IS ON E4.

THIS SHOULD BE BLATANTLY OBVIOUS TO ANYONE WILLING TO SPEND 5 MINUTES LOOKING AT THE POSITIONS I HAVE POSTED.

If you are too lazy to do the work yourself. Well, that is your problem. It is not mine. We are done here.

peter
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Re: deep.09

Post by peter » Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:57 pm

jhellis3 wrote:YOU CAPTURE THE BLACK D4-PAWN WITH THE WHITE ROOK WHICH IS ON E4.
And how does the white Rook come to e4 from the position we started from?
(Not to talk about that in the dia I guess you're still talking about, not the one that should tell me all, but the one in which White shall capture the black D- Pawn, it's Black's turn, not White's.)
If we are done here, it's ok for me, but it's not my fault that you obviously have no answer to the question, that you brought up yourself.
And then you call me lazy and that it's my problem, not yours...
:shock:
Peter.

jhellis3
Posts: 382
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:36 pm

Re: deep.09

Post by jhellis3 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:12 pm

And how does the white Rook come to e4 from the position we started from?
I have already posted this in my previous posts.

I put considerable amount of time and effort into my posts. When people play "devil's advocate" without putting in at least equal effort, I instantly lose all respect for that person.

I am not in the business of convincing you or anyone else of anything. You and you alone are responsible for your beliefs. I am solely interested in the truth of the matter, which I have resolved to my satisfaction. What you believe or think is none of my concern.

If you are genuinely interested in the truth of the matter, I am confident in saying that all of my previous posts contain sufficient information to make elucidation of this matter virtually trivial.

Good day sir.

peter
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Re: deep.09

Post by peter » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:31 pm

jhellis3 wrote:If you are genuinely interested in the truth of the matter, I am confident in saying that all of my previous posts contain sufficient information to make elucidation of this matter virtually trivial.

Good day sir.
I'm really sorry, Sir, if I indeed should have missed your winning line.
Could you please give a link to the posting or the postings you talk about or simply give your winning line again or at least any line to at least one of the many winning positions you showed?

BTW, if you don't think that necessary anymore, simply let it be and it's ok for me too.
I really don't want to bother you more then you did bother me.
It isn't and wasn't me to tell all the time again and again to the world I had cooked a study without showing any single line to prove that.
My oh my
Peter.

jhellis3
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Re: deep.09

Post by jhellis3 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:34 pm

K, bye.

Sven
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Re: deep.09

Post by Sven » Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:49 pm

To summarize this very interesting analysis from my viewpoint:

[D]6r1/6r1/2p1k1pp/p1pbP2q/Pp1p1PpP/1P1P2NR/1KPQ3R/8 b - - 0 1
According to Dann the main line starts with ...

1...Qf5 2.Nxf5 gxf5 3.Rg3 h5 4.Re2 Re7 5.Re1 Rge8 6.Qe2 Kd7 7.Rgg1 Kc7 8.Qf2 Re6

and continues up to a draw due to Black holding the fortress. I think this line can be improved.

1) Instead of 7.Rgg1 I think White should play 7.Qf2 followed by Joseph's idea, e.g.:

[D]4r3/3kr3/2p5/p1pbPp1p/Pp1p1PpP/1P1P2R1/1KP2Q2/4R3 b - - 0 7
7...Re6 8.Rge3 dxe3 (8...R6e7 9.e6+ Kd6 10.Re5 Bxe6 11.Qg2 Bd5 12.Rxe7 Rxe7 13.Qf2 +-; 8...R8e7 9.Re4 Re8 10.Rxd4 cxd4 11.Qxd4 Ra8 +- similar to main line after 8...dxe3) 9.Qxe3 Ra8 10.Qxc5 Kc7 11.Rb1 Kd7 12.Qb6 Kc8 13.Re1 Re8 14.Re3 Re6 15.Kc1 Re7 16.e6 +-

2) Not quite an improvement seems to be 6.Rge3 (instead of 6.Qe2), due to 6...Rg8 (not 6...dxe3 which appears to be losing according to my analysis) 7.Re4 g3,

[D]6r1/4r3/2p1k3/p1pbPp1p/Pp1pRP1P/1P1P2p1/1KPQ4/4R3 w - - 0 8
and now the original idea of Re4 to take d4 with the rook and then with the queen is no longer available for White.

3) But Black can improve Dann's main line earlier, in my opinion, by 4...Bf3! (instead of 4...Re7):

[D]6r1/6r1/2p1k3/p1p1Pp1p/Pp1p1PpP/1P1P1bR1/1KPQR3/8 w - - 0 5
5.Re4 fxe4 6.dxe4 Bxe4 7.Qe2 Bd5 8.Qa6 Kf5 9.Qxa5 Kxf4 10.Rg1 g3 11.Qxc5 g2 12.Qxb4 Kg3 (12...Kxe5 losing after 13.Re1+) 13.Qxd4 Rg4 14.Qe3+ Kh2, and now I can find no winning line for White.

4) Therefore I keep up my original idea of sacrificing a rook on c3, as follows (after 1...Qf5 2.Nxf5 gxf5 3.Rg3 h5):

4.Rf2 Rd7
(4...Re8 seems to be losing for Black according to my analysis, although I may be wrong. My main line is:
5.Rf1 Rge7 6.Rc1 Rb8 7.Qf2 Rd7 8.c3 bxc3+ 9.Rxc3 dxc3+ 10.Kxc3 Rxb3+ 11.Kc2 Ra3
(11...Rb4 12.Qxc5 Rxf4 13.Qf8 Rf2+ 14.Kc3 Re7 15.Rg1 Rb7 16.Rb1! +-)
12.Qxc5 Ra2+ 13.Kc3 Kf7 14.e6+ Bxe6 15.Re3 Re7 16.Rxe6 Rxe6 17.Qxf5+ Ke7 18.Qxa5 Ra1 19.Qxh5 Rxa4 20.Qg5+ Rf6
(20...Kf7 21.h5 +-)
21.h5 Ra3+ 22.Kd2 Kf7 23.h6 Ra2+ 24.Kc3 Rh2 25.Qg7+ Ke6 26.h7 Rfh6 27.Qxg4+ Kd6 28.f5 Rxh7 29.Qg6+ Ke7
(29...Kd7 30.Qe6+ Kc7 31.f6 R2h6 32.Qe3 Rh8 33.f7 +-)
30.Qe6+ Kf8 31.Qf6+ Kg8 32.Qxc6 +-)

5.Rf1 Rdg7 6.Rc1 Rb7 7.Qf2 Rd8 8.c3 bxc3+ 9.Rxc3 dxc3+

[D]3r4/1r6/2p1k3/p1pbPp1p/P4PpP/1PpP2R1/1K3Q2/8 w - - 0 10
And now I have two choices: 10.Kxc3 or 10.Kc1. The former leads, as far as I could find out, to an ending QPP vs. RBPP which is quite difficult, and might be a draw - but I don't know ... Here is my main line for this branch:
10.Kxc3 Rxb3+ 11.Kc2 Rb4 12.Qxc5 Rxf4 13.Qxa5 Rd4 14.Qc7 f4 15.Rg1 g3 16.Qg7 Rxa4 17.Rb1 Ra2+ 18.Kc1 g2 19.Rb7 Ra1+ 20.Kb2 Ra2+ 21.Kb1 g1=Q+ 22.Qxg1 Rg2 23.Qa7 Kxe5 24.Rb4 Rdg8 25.Qd4+ Ke6 26.Qxf4 R2g4 27.Qh6+ R8g6 28.Qe3+ Kf5 29.Qf2+ Ke6 30.Qe1+ Kd7 31.Rxg4 Rxg4 32.Kc2 +/=

[D]8/3k4/2p5/3b3p/6rP/3P4/2K5/4Q3 b - - 0 32
A difficult one ... will the queen dominate rook+bishop with two pawns each?

Whereas the latter, 10.Kc1, leads to a much more complex play, where Black seems to hold the draw, but again: I am not sure, it is very close, and maybe someone can find some improvements? Here is only the "best" line I found:
10.Kc1 Rxb3 11.Qxc5 Rb4 12.Kc2 Rxf4 13.Qxa5 Rd4 14.Qc7 f4 15.Rg1 f3
and here I tried various white moves but did not find a win so far, the most promising line being 16.Qg7 Rxa4 17.Rb1 Ra2+ 18.Kxc3 f2 19.Qg6+ Kd7 20.Qh7+ and now 20...Ke8 seems to hold the draw.

[D]3rk3/7Q/2p5/3bP2p/6pP/2KP4/r4p2/1R6 w - - 0 21
An apology to everyone if this analysis has errors, or if I have missed any important line that has already been posted in this thread - even though I tried to get most of the points that were made here, which was not easy ... The position is complex, and due to its "fortress" characteristics it has potential for getting misleading scores from engines in some cases, so one has to be very careful.

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