Naum 4.6 v Houdini 200716

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Harvey Williamson, bob

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
Sean Evans
Posts: 1777
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:58 pm
Location: Canada

Naum 4.6 v Houdini 200716

Post by Sean Evans » Sat Oct 08, 2016 10:20 pm

This is a rapid time control game of 25 minutes with a 10 second increment between the engines Naum 4.6 and Houdini 200716. This was from Season 9 of the TCEC (Top Chess Engine Championship) in 2016. Understanding the play of two top engines is sometimes very difficult, however with this game it flows natural enough. Naum 4.6 plays a Queen pawn opening without a contributing c-pawn. How would the Houdini chess engine address white's somewhat passive approach to the opening? Observe the calm before the pawn storm in this aesthetic chess engine battle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3nLd6S ... e=youtu.be

User avatar
AdminX
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:34 pm
Location: Acworth, GA
Contact:

Re: Naum 4.6 v Houdini 200716

Post by AdminX » Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:37 am

Nice game, I want to study this one more! :wink:
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
__________________________________________________________________
Ted Summers

rcmaddox
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:59 pm
Location: Winder, GA

Re: Naum 4.6 v Houdini 200716

Post by rcmaddox » Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:59 am

This is indeed a very cool game. Houdini seems to violate opening principles even as it rolls over Naum.


[Event "TCEC Season 9 Rapid"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2016.10.06"]
[Round "38"]
[White "Naum 4.6"]
[Black "Houdini 200716"]
[Result "0-1"]

1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 e6 3. Bf4 c5 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. e3 a6 6. Be2 b5 7. a3 Bb7 8. O-O
Nbd7 9. Ne5 Rc8 10. Nxd7 Nxd7 11. Qd3 Be7 12. Bf3 g5 13. Bg3 h5 14. h3 f5 15.
Be2 g4 16. Rfd1 Kf7 17. Qd2 Rg8 18. hxg4 hxg4 19. Rf1 Nf6 20. Qe1 Bd6 21. Bh4
Rh8 22. f4 Rh5 23. Rd1 Qh8 24. g3 b4 25. Nb1 Be7 26. Kg2 cxd4 27. Rxd4 Ne4 28.
Bd3 Bxh4 29. gxh4 Rxh4 30. Rh1 Rh3 31. Bxe4 fxe4 32. Rd1 Qh5 33. Nd2 Rh8 34.
Qg1 g3 35. Re1 d4 36. f5 *


Not one of my chess engines wants to play 12 ...g5, including Houdini 4.

Nay Lin Tun
Posts: 511
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:34 am

Re: Naum 4.6 v Houdini 200716

Post by Nay Lin Tun » Sun Oct 09, 2016 6:42 am

It is the reason behind Houdini being current no 1 in TCEC rapid with 38/42 score or 3400+ performance rating. Neither SF nor Komodo 10 find the best move 12.---g5!!! after a few minutes of kibitzing in my PC.

[pgn][Event "TCEC Season 9 Rapid"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2016.10.06"]
[Round "38"]
[White "Naum 4.6"]
[Black "Houdini 200716"]
[Result "0-1"]

1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 e6 3. Bf4 c5 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. e3 a6 6. Be2 b5 7. a3 Bb7 8. O-O
Nbd7 9. Ne5 Rc8 10. Nxd7 Nxd7 11. Qd3 Be7 12. Bf3 g5 13. Bg3 h5 14. h3 f5 15.
Be2 g4 16. Rfd1 Kf7 17. Qd2 Rg8 18. hxg4 hxg4 19. Rf1 Nf6 20. Qe1 Bd6 21. Bh4
Rh8 22. f4 Rh5 23. Rd1 Qh8 24. g3 b4 25. Nb1 Be7 26. Kg2 cxd4 27. Rxd4 Ne4 28.
Bd3 Bxh4 29. gxh4 Rxh4 30. Rh1 Rh3 31. Bxe4 fxe4 32. Rd1 Qh5 33. Nd2 Rh8 34.
Qg1 g3 35. Re1 d4 36. f5 * [/pgn]

User avatar
reflectionofpower
Posts: 1456
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:28 pm
Location: USA

Re: Naum 4.6 v Houdini 200716

Post by reflectionofpower » Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:55 am

rcmaddox wrote:This is indeed a very cool game. Houdini seems to violate opening principles even as it rolls over Naum.


[Event "TCEC Season 9 Rapid"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2016.10.06"]
[Round "38"]
[White "Naum 4.6"]
[Black "Houdini 200716"]
[Result "0-1"]

1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 e6 3. Bf4 c5 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. e3 a6 6. Be2 b5 7. a3 Bb7 8. O-O
Nbd7 9. Ne5 Rc8 10. Nxd7 Nxd7 11. Qd3 Be7 12. Bf3 g5

Not one of my chess engines wants to play 12 ...g5, including Houdini 4.
That's odd because my Houdini 4 did play it and it doesn't take long to find it on this A8 laptop.
"hodie mihi, cras tibi"

Lonnie

beram
Posts: 1187
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:11 pm

Re: Naum 4.6 v Houdini 200716

Post by beram » Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:02 am

Nay Lin Tun wrote:It is the reason behind Houdini being current no 1 in TCEC rapid with 38/42 score or 3400+ performance rating. Neither SF nor Komodo 10 find the best move 12.---g5!!! after a few minutes of kibitzing in my PC.

[pgn][Event "TCEC Season 9 Rapid"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2016.10.06"]
[Round "38"]
[White "Naum 4.6"]
[Black "Houdini 200716"]
[Result "0-1"]

1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 e6 3. Bf4 c5 4. Nc3 Nf6 5. e3 a6 6. Be2 b5 7. a3 Bb7 8. O-O
Nbd7 9. Ne5 Rc8 10. Nxd7 Nxd7 11. Qd3 Be7 12. Bf3 g5 13. Bg3 h5 14. h3 f5 15.
Be2 g4 16. Rfd1 Kf7 17. Qd2 Rg8 18. hxg4 hxg4 19. Rf1 Nf6 20. Qe1 Bd6 21. Bh4
Rh8 22. f4 Rh5 23. Rd1 Qh8 24. g3 b4 25. Nb1 Be7 26. Kg2 cxd4 27. Rxd4 Ne4 28.
Bd3 Bxh4 29. gxh4 Rxh4 30. Rh1 Rh3 31. Bxe4 fxe4 32. Rd1 Qh5 33. Nd2 Rh8 34.
Qg1 g3 35. Re1 d4 36. f5 * [/pgn]
Nice one
My latest SF 081016 on laptop system finds it in 4 minutes at depth 29

Code: Select all

Naum 4.6 - Houdini 200716, TCEC Season 9 Rapid 2016
2rqk2r/1b1nbppp/p3p3/1ppp4/3P1B2/P1NQPB2/1PP2PPP/R4RK1 b k - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 081016 64 BMI2:

12...0-0 
  =/+  (-0.51 ++)   Depth: 22/30   00:00:09  26793kN
12...0-0 13.h3 
  =/+  (-0.44 --)   Depth: 22/30   00:00:10  28041kN
12...0-0 13.h3 Re8 14.Ne2 Qb6 15.Rfe1 g6 16.Bg3 a5 17.Nc3 Bc6 18.dxc5 Nxc5 19.Qd4 h5 20.b3 Nd7 21.Qxb6 Nxb6 22.Be2 Bf6 23.Nxb5 Bxa1 24.Rxa1 
  =/+  (-0.44)   Depth: 22/30   00:00:16  47478kN
12...0-0 13.h3 Re8 14.Ne2 Qb6 15.Rfe1 a5 16.Nc3 c4 17.Qd1 Nf6 18.Be5 Red8 19.Qb1 Qa6 20.Rf1 Bc6 21.b3 Ne4 22.Bxe4 dxe4 23.bxc4 bxc4 24.a4 h5 
  =/+  (-0.47)   Depth: 23/30   00:00:18  52312kN
12...0-0 13.h3 Re8 14.Ne2 Qb6 15.Rfe1 a5 16.c3 g6 17.Qb1 a4 18.Bg3 c4 19.Bf4 Qc6 20.Rd1 h5 21.Bh6 Nf6 22.Bg5 Ne4 23.Bxe7 Rxe7 24.Nf4 
  =/+  (-0.48)   Depth: 24/30   00:00:20  59942kN
12...0-0 13.h3 Re8 14.Ne2 Qb6 15.Rfe1 a5 16.c3 g6 17.Qb1 c4 18.Qc2 Red8 19.e4 dxe4 20.Bxe4 Nf6 21.Bxb7 Qxb7 22.Ng3 Nd5 23.Bd2 Rb8 24.Ne4 h5 25.Qb1 Qc7 26.Bh6 
  =/+  (-0.47)   Depth: 25/31   00:00:24  70824kN
12...0-0 13.h3 
  =/+  (-0.39 --)   Depth: 26/33   00:00:30  87228kN
12...0-0 
  =/+  (-0.47 ++)   Depth: 26/33   00:00:38  112mN
12...0-0 13.h3 Re8 14.Ne2 c4 15.Qd1 Qb6 16.Qb1 a5 17.c3 Ra8 18.Re1 b4 19.e4 dxe4 20.Bxe4 Nf6 21.Bxb7 Qxb7 22.Be5 Nd5 23.axb4 axb4 24.Qe4 Rxa1 25.Rxa1 Ra8 26.Rxa8+ Qxa8 
  =/+  (-0.43)   Depth: 26/33   00:00:56  167mN
12...0-0 13.h3 Qb6 14.Rfb1 Nf6 15.Ne2 Ne4 16.c3 a5 17.Qd1 Rfd8 18.Ng3 Nd6 19.Be2 c4 20.Nf1 Bc6 21.Nd2 Qb7 22.Nf3 f6 23.Nd2 Qd7 24.Qc2 Qb7 25.Rd1 a4 
  =/+  (-0.42)   Depth: 27/34   00:01:14  223mN
12...0-0 13.h3 Bc6 14.Rfb1 Re8 15.Ne2 Nf6 16.Be5 c4 17.Qd1 Ne4 18.Bxe4 dxe4 19.b3 Bb7 20.bxc4 Rxc4 21.a4 b4 22.c3 Qd7 23.Rc1 Rec8 24.cxb4 f6 25.Bg3 Bxb4 26.Rxc4 Rxc4 27.Rc1 Rxc1 
  =/+  (-0.45)   Depth: 28/38   00:02:36  470mN
12...h5 
  =/+  (-0.52 ++)   Depth: 29/38   00:03:00  539mN
12...h5 
  =/+  (-0.60 ++)   Depth: 29/38   00:03:07  561mN
12...h5 13.h3 
  =/+  (-0.52 --)   Depth: 29/46   00:03:37  651mN
12...g5 
  =/+  (-0.61 ++)   Depth: 29/46   00:04:01  722mN
12...g5 13.Bg3 h5 14.h3 f5 15.Bd1 Kf7 16.Ne2 c4 17.Qd2 h4 18.Bh2 Rg8 19.c3 a5 20.Bc2 Ra8 21.Qd1 Nf6 22.Be5 Qb6 23.Qe1 Nd7 24.Bh2 Bc6 25.b3 Qb7 26.a4 cxb3 27.Bxb3 Rgc8 28.Bc2 bxa4 
  =/+  (-0.60)   Depth: 29/46   00:04:54  880mN
12...g5 13.Bg3 h5 14.h3 f5 15.Bd1 Kf7 16.Ne2 c4 17.Qd2 h4 18.Bh2 Rg8 19.Qe1 Qf8 20.f3 Qg7 21.Qd2 Nf6 22.Qa5 Rc6 23.Be5 Qh6 24.Qe1 Rcc8 25.Qa5 Nd7 26.Bh2 Qf6 27.Qd2 Kg7 28.Nc3 Qg6 29.Be2 Rgd8 30.Kh1 Bc6 31.Kg1 
  =/+  (-0.62)   Depth: 30/46   00:05:25  974mN
12...g5 
  =/+  (-0.69 ++)   Depth: 31/46   00:05:40  1019mN
12...g5 13.Bg3 
  =/+  (-0.62 --)   Depth: 31/46   00:05:52  1053mN
12...g5 13.Bg3 h5 14.h3 f5 15.Bd1 Kf7 16.Ne2 c4 17.Qd2 h4 18.Bh2 Rg8 19.c3 a5 20.Bc2 Bc6 21.Qe1 Nf6 22.Be5 Qf8 23.f3 Qh6 24.Qd2 Rcd8 25.Bxf6 Qxf6 26.e4 Qg6 27.Rae1 Bd6 28.e5 Bc7 29.Qd1 Bb6 30.Kh2 
  =/+  (-0.59)   Depth: 31/46   00:05:54  1059mN
12...g5 13.Bg3 h5 14.h3 f5 15.Bd1 Kf7 16.Ne2 c4 17.Qd2 h4 18.Bh2 Rg8 19.c3 a5 20.Bc2 Bc6 21.Qd1 Nf6 22.Be5 Ra8 23.Qb1 Qb6 24.Re1 Qb7 25.Rf1 Qc8 26.a4 b4 27.b3 Qb7 28.Rd1 cxb3 29.Bxb3 Nd7 30.Bh2 Nb6 
  =/+  (-0.62)   Depth: 32/46   00:06:18  1131mN
12...g5 13.Bg3 
  =/+  (-0.55 --)   Depth: 33/46   00:06:23  1146mN
12...g5 
  =/+  (-0.62 ++)   Depth: 33/46   00:06:35  1181mN
12...g5 13.Bg3 
  =/+  (-0.55 --)   Depth: 33/46   00:06:41  1201mN
12...g5 13.Bg3 h5 14.h3 f5 15.Bd1 Kf7 16.Ne2 c4 17.Qd2 h4 18.Bh2 Rg8 19.c3 a5 20.Bc2 Rg7 21.Kh1 Qb6 22.b3 cxb3 23.Bxb3 Rgg8 24.Rfb1 Qc6 25.Qd1 Ba6 26.Bc2 Nb6 27.Bd3 Nc4 28.a4 bxa4 29.Qxa4 Qxa4 30.Rxa4 
  =/+  (-0.62)   Depth: 33/46   00:06:59  1254mN
12...g5 13.Bg3 
  =/+  (-0.55 --)   Depth: 34/48   00:08:16  1481mN
12...g5 
  =/+  (-0.62 ++)   Depth: 34/48   00:08:26  1510mN
12...g5 13.Bg3 h5 14.h3 f5 15.Bd1 Kf7 16.Ne2 c4 17.Qd2 Rg8 18.Bh2 h4 19.c3 a5 20.Bc2 Rg7 21.Qe1 Qb6 22.Kh1 a4 23.Kg1 Rf8 24.Rb1 Bd6 25.Bxd6 Qxd6 26.f4 Rh8 27.fxg5 Rxg5 28.Rf4 Rhg8 29.Qf2 Nf6 30.Rxh4 Bc6 
  =/+  (-0.64)   Depth: 34/48   00:08:57  1603mN
12...g5 13.Bg3 h5 14.h3 f5 15.Bd1 Kf7 16.Ne2 c4 17.Qd2 Rg8 18.Kh1 Rg7 19.Bh2 h4 20.Qe1 Bc6 21.c3 a5 22.Bc2 Qh8 23.f3 Kg8 24.Be5 Nxe5 25.dxe5 Bc5 26.Nd4 Bd7 27.Rd1 Qh5 28.Ra1 Qg6 29.Qe2 Qh6 30.e4 dxe4 31.fxe4 f4 32.a4 
  =/+  (-0.59)   Depth: 35/48   00:10:19  1842mN
12...g5 13.Bg3 h5 14.h3 f5 15.Bd1 Kf7 16.Ne2 c4 17.Qd2 Rg8 18.Kh1 Rg7 19.Bh2 h4 20.Qe1 Bc6 21.c3 a5 22.Bc2 Ra8 23.Kg1 Qb6 24.Qd1 Rd8 25.Kh1 Bb7 26.Be5 Rgg8 27.Bh2 Nf6 28.Be5 Bd6 29.Qd2 a4 30.Rad1 Ne4 
  =/+  (-0.60)   Depth: 36/48   00:10:56  1948mN

(Mourik, S'dijk 09.10.2016)

Sean Evans
Posts: 1777
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:58 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Naum 4.6 v Houdini 200716

Post by Sean Evans » Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:24 am

I am sure that chess teachers around the world are cringing over this game :)

rcmaddox
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:59 pm
Location: Winder, GA

Re: Naum 4.6 v Houdini 200716

Post by rcmaddox » Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:26 am

Well, Stockfish Dev finally found it. It might be that my old laptop is just too slow.

User avatar
AdminX
Posts: 5115
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:34 pm
Location: Acworth, GA
Contact:

Re: Naum 4.6 v Houdini 200716

Post by AdminX » Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:11 am

rcmaddox wrote:This is indeed a very cool game. Houdini seems to violate opening principles even as it rolls over Naum.
Houdini said to hell with those principles, the Philidor code applies here since Naum decided not to play c4.
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
__________________________________________________________________
Ted Summers

User avatar
reflectionofpower
Posts: 1456
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:28 pm
Location: USA

Re: Naum 4.6 v Houdini 200716

Post by reflectionofpower » Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:22 am

AdminX wrote:
rcmaddox wrote:This is indeed a very cool game. Houdini seems to violate opening principles even as it rolls over Naum.
Houdini said to hell with those principles, the Philidor code applies here since Naum decided not to play c4.
But when looking at it Houdini played it logically. He pawn stormed his opponent's kingside even though it weakened his but Naum could not capitalize on it. Houdini's attack was nice and sound.
"hodie mihi, cras tibi"

Lonnie

Post Reply