Chess Artist

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: bob, hgm, Harvey Williamson

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
Ferdy
Posts: 4113
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:15 pm
Location: Philippines

Re: Chess Artist

Post by Ferdy » Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:37 am

zenpawn wrote:This is a great program! I've yet to take advantage of all the impressive new features you've been adding, but even right out of the gate, it's been one of my favorite tools.

One request, if I may. Currently, the evals are from white's point of view when annotating a game, but from the STM when adding ce scores to an EPD. Could you maybe add a flag that would let the user decide whether the score in either case is for the STM or white's perspective?

Thanks,
-Erin
The ce score in EPD is SPOV-side point of view, this is by epd standard, and I am not really interested in implementing a flag to modify this.

One reason for scores in pgn in WPOV is that it is easier to see which side has the the advantage. If it is positive it is better for white, if negative it is better for black. Do you have reasons why you want SPOV in pgn scores?

zenpawn
Posts: 299
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2016 6:31 pm
Location: United States

Re: Chess Artist

Post by zenpawn » Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:25 am

Ferdy wrote: One reason for scores in pgn in WPOV is that it is easier to see which side has the the advantage. If it is positive it is better for white, if negative it is better for black. Do you have reasons why you want SPOV in pgn scores?
It's actually the EPD in which I'd rather have it from white's point of view for consistency and the same reasons you mention here for the PGN.

Thanks,
-Erin

Henk
Posts: 5833
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 8:31 am

Re: Chess Artist

Post by Henk » Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:42 pm

Can you annotate this game too. So we can compare and see if they make sense.
[pgn]
[Event "Dresden"]
[Site "Dresden GER"]
[Date "1926.04.09"]
[EventDate "1926.04.04"]
[Round "5"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Aron Nimzowitsch"]
[Black "Akiba Rubinstein"]
[ECO "A34"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[PlyCount "91"]

1. c4 { Notes by Raymond Keene. Awarded the prize for the
best-played game.} c5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4
Nb4 6. Bc4 e6 7. O-O N8c6 8. d3 Nd4 9. Nxd4 cxd4 10. Ne2 a6
11. Ng3 Bd6 12. f4 O-O 13. Qf3 Kh8 14. Bd2 f5 15. Rae1 Nc6
16. Re2 Qc7 17. exf5 exf5 18. Nh1 {!! A wonderful idea. White
has in mind the manoeuvre Nh1-f2-h3-g5, in conjunction with
Qh5, as a method of assaulting the position of Black's
king. When I first read My System I was so impressed by this
game that I deliberately created situations in my next few
games where the move Ng3-h1 was possible, in the belief that
this mystical retreat would somehow result in a miraculous
increase of energy in my position, irrespective of whatever
else may have been happening on the board at the time.}
18...Bd7 19. Nf2 Rae8 20. Rfe1 Rxe2 21. Rxe2 Nd8 22. Nh3 Bc6
23. Qh5 g6 24. Qh4 Kg7 25. Qf2 {Another brilliant idea. The
threat to the d-pawn forces Black to withdraw either his queen
or his king's bishop from the defence of his kingside. }
25...Bc5 26. b4 Bb6 27. Qh4 {Back again and with redoubled
strength. } 27...Re8 {Or 27...Rf6 28 Ng5 h6 29 Nh7 +- }
28. Re5 {!} Nf7 {If 28...Rxe5 29 fxe5 Qxe5 30 Qh6+ or 28...h6
29 g4 hxg4 30 f5 Qxe5 31 f6+ Qxf6 32 Qxh6 mate. These
beautiful variations are just an indication of what
Nimzowitsch saw. } 29. Bxf7 Qxf7 30. Ng5 Qg8 31. Rxe8 Bxe8
32. Qe1 {! A decisive change of front. } 32...Bc6 33. Qe7+ Kh8
34. b5 {!! Who would expect the death-blow to come from this
quarter? If Black plays 34..axb5 he is mated as follows: 35
Ne6 h5 36 Qf6+ Kh7 37 Ng5+ Kh6 38 Bb4! In view of this,
Rubinstein elects to surrender a piece but that too is
obviously without hope.} 34...Qg7 35. Qxg7+ Kxg7 36. bxc6
36...bxc6 37. Nf3 c5 38. Ne5 Bc7 39. Nc4 Kf7 40. g3 Bd8
41. Ba5 Be7 42. Bc7 Ke6 43. Nb6 h6 44. h4 g5 45. h5 g4 46. Be5
1-0
[/pgn]

Ferdy
Posts: 4113
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:15 pm
Location: Philippines

Re: Chess Artist

Post by Ferdy » Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:03 am

Henk wrote:Can you annotate this game too. So we can compare and see if they make sense.
[pgn]
[Event "Dresden"]
[Site "Dresden GER"]
[Date "1926.04.09"]
[EventDate "1926.04.04"]
[Round "5"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Aron Nimzowitsch"]
[Black "Akiba Rubinstein"]
[ECO "A34"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[PlyCount "91"]

1. c4 { Notes by Raymond Keene. Awarded the prize for the
best-played game.} c5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4
Nb4 6. Bc4 e6 7. O-O N8c6 8. d3 Nd4 9. Nxd4 cxd4 10. Ne2 a6
11. Ng3 Bd6 12. f4 O-O 13. Qf3 Kh8 14. Bd2 f5 15. Rae1 Nc6
16. Re2 Qc7 17. exf5 exf5 18. Nh1 {!! A wonderful idea. White
has in mind the manoeuvre Nh1-f2-h3-g5, in conjunction with
Qh5, as a method of assaulting the position of Black's
king. When I first read My System I was so impressed by this
game that I deliberately created situations in my next few
games where the move Ng3-h1 was possible, in the belief that
this mystical retreat would somehow result in a miraculous
increase of energy in my position, irrespective of whatever
else may have been happening on the board at the time.}
18...Bd7 19. Nf2 Rae8 20. Rfe1 Rxe2 21. Rxe2 Nd8 22. Nh3 Bc6
23. Qh5 g6 24. Qh4 Kg7 25. Qf2 {Another brilliant idea. The
threat to the d-pawn forces Black to withdraw either his queen
or his king's bishop from the defence of his kingside. }
25...Bc5 26. b4 Bb6 27. Qh4 {Back again and with redoubled
strength. } 27...Re8 {Or 27...Rf6 28 Ng5 h6 29 Nh7 +- }
28. Re5 {!} Nf7 {If 28...Rxe5 29 fxe5 Qxe5 30 Qh6+ or 28...h6
29 g4 hxg4 30 f5 Qxe5 31 f6+ Qxf6 32 Qxh6 mate. These
beautiful variations are just an indication of what
Nimzowitsch saw. } 29. Bxf7 Qxf7 30. Ng5 Qg8 31. Rxe8 Bxe8
32. Qe1 {! A decisive change of front. } 32...Bc6 33. Qe7+ Kh8
34. b5 {!! Who would expect the death-blow to come from this
quarter? If Black plays 34..axb5 he is mated as follows: 35
Ne6 h5 36 Qf6+ Kh7 37 Ng5+ Kh6 38 Bb4! In view of this,
Rubinstein elects to surrender a piece but that too is
obviously without hope.} 34...Qg7 35. Qxg7+ Kxg7 36. bxc6
36...bxc6 37. Nf3 c5 38. Ne5 Bc7 39. Nc4 Kf7 40. g3 Bd8
41. Ba5 Be7 42. Bc7 Ke6 43. Nb6 h6 44. h4 g5 45. h5 g4 46. Be5
1-0
[/pgn]
Analysis is in progress at 30s/pos.
Analysis so far.

[pgn]
[Event "Dresden"]
[Site "Dresden GER"]
[Date "1926.04.09"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Aron Nimzowitsch"]
[Black "Akiba Rubinstein"]
[Result "1-0"]
[EventDate "1926.04.04"]
[ECO "A34"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[PlyCount "91"]
[Annotator "Brainfish 280816 64 POPCNT"]

{Hash 64mb, Threads 1, @ 30.0s/pos}
1. c4 (1. e4 {cerebellum}) 1... c5 (1... e6 {cerebellum})
2. Nf3 (2. Nf3 {cerebellum}) 2... Nf6 (2... Nc6 {cerebellum})
3. Nc3 (3. Nc3 {cerebellum}) 3... d5 (3... d5 {cerebellum})
4. cxd5 (4. cxd5 {cerebellum}) 4... Nxd5 (4... Nxd5 {cerebellum})
5. e4 (5. d4 {cerebellum}) 5... Nb4 (5... Nb4 {cerebellum})
6. Bc4 (6. Bb5+ {cerebellum}) 6... e6 (6... Nd3+ {cerebellum})
7. O-O (7. d4 {cerebellum}) 7... N8c6 (7... N8c6 {cerebellum})
8. d3 {+0.36} (8. d3 {cerebellum}) 8... Nd4 {+0.31} (8... Nd4 {cerebellum})
9. Nxd4 {+0.26} (9. Nxd4 {cerebellum}) 9... cxd4 {+0.33} (9... cxd4 {cerebellum})
10. Ne2 {+0.31} (10. Ne2 {cerebellum}) 10... a6 $0 {+0.50} ({Better is} 10...Be7 11. a3 Nc6 12. f4 O-O {+0.34 - Brainfish})
[/pgn]

Ferdy
Posts: 4113
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:15 pm
Location: Philippines

Re: Chess Artist

Post by Ferdy » Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:27 am

Henk wrote:Can you annotate this game too. So we can compare and see if they make sense.
[pgn]
[Event "Dresden"]
[Site "Dresden GER"]
[Date "1926.04.09"]
[EventDate "1926.04.04"]
[Round "5"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Aron Nimzowitsch"]
[Black "Akiba Rubinstein"]
[ECO "A34"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[PlyCount "91"]

1. c4 { Notes by Raymond Keene. Awarded the prize for the
best-played game.} c5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nc3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. e4
Nb4 6. Bc4 e6 7. O-O N8c6 8. d3 Nd4 9. Nxd4 cxd4 10. Ne2 a6
11. Ng3 Bd6 12. f4 O-O 13. Qf3 Kh8 14. Bd2 f5 15. Rae1 Nc6
16. Re2 Qc7 17. exf5 exf5 18. Nh1 {!! A wonderful idea. White
has in mind the manoeuvre Nh1-f2-h3-g5, in conjunction with
Qh5, as a method of assaulting the position of Black's
king. When I first read My System I was so impressed by this
game that I deliberately created situations in my next few
games where the move Ng3-h1 was possible, in the belief that
this mystical retreat would somehow result in a miraculous
increase of energy in my position, irrespective of whatever
else may have been happening on the board at the time.}
18...Bd7 19. Nf2 Rae8 20. Rfe1 Rxe2 21. Rxe2 Nd8 22. Nh3 Bc6
23. Qh5 g6 24. Qh4 Kg7 25. Qf2 {Another brilliant idea. The
threat to the d-pawn forces Black to withdraw either his queen
or his king's bishop from the defence of his kingside. }
25...Bc5 26. b4 Bb6 27. Qh4 {Back again and with redoubled
strength. } 27...Re8 {Or 27...Rf6 28 Ng5 h6 29 Nh7 +- }
28. Re5 {!} Nf7 {If 28...Rxe5 29 fxe5 Qxe5 30 Qh6+ or 28...h6
29 g4 hxg4 30 f5 Qxe5 31 f6+ Qxf6 32 Qxh6 mate. These
beautiful variations are just an indication of what
Nimzowitsch saw. } 29. Bxf7 Qxf7 30. Ng5 Qg8 31. Rxe8 Bxe8
32. Qe1 {! A decisive change of front. } 32...Bc6 33. Qe7+ Kh8
34. b5 {!! Who would expect the death-blow to come from this
quarter? If Black plays 34..axb5 he is mated as follows: 35
Ne6 h5 36 Qf6+ Kh7 37 Ng5+ Kh6 38 Bb4! In view of this,
Rubinstein elects to surrender a piece but that too is
obviously without hope.} 34...Qg7 35. Qxg7+ Kxg7 36. bxc6
36...bxc6 37. Nf3 c5 38. Ne5 Bc7 39. Nc4 Kf7 40. g3 Bd8
41. Ba5 Be7 42. Bc7 Ke6 43. Nb6 h6 44. h4 g5 45. h5 g4 46. Be5
1-0
[/pgn]
Chess Artist analysis is completed. In 28. Re5, Keene gave ! whereas Artist gave !!, Brainfish consider this position as very complicated and this is also the move that it found best given 30s of search time.

[pgn]
[Event "Dresden"]
[Site "Dresden GER"]
[Date "1926.04.09"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Aron Nimzowitsch"]
[Black "Akiba Rubinstein"]
[Result "1-0"]
[EventDate "1926.04.04"]
[ECO "A34"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[PlyCount "91"]
[Annotator "Brainfish 280816 64 POPCNT"]

{Hash 64mb, Threads 1, @ 30.0s/pos}
1. c4 (1. e4 {cerebellum}) 1... c5 (1... e6 {cerebellum})
2. Nf3 (2. Nf3 {cerebellum}) 2... Nf6 (2... Nc6 {cerebellum})
3. Nc3 (3. Nc3 {cerebellum}) 3... d5 (3... d5 {cerebellum})
4. cxd5 (4. cxd5 {cerebellum}) 4... Nxd5 (4... Nxd5 {cerebellum})
5. e4 (5. d4 {cerebellum}) 5... Nb4 (5... Nb4 {cerebellum})
6. Bc4 (6. Bb5+ {cerebellum}) 6... e6 (6... Nd3+ {cerebellum})
7. O-O (7. d4 {cerebellum}) 7... N8c6 (7... N8c6 {cerebellum})
8. d3 {+0.36} (8. d3 {cerebellum}) 8... Nd4 {+0.31} (8... Nd4 {cerebellum})
9. Nxd4 {+0.26} (9. Nxd4 {cerebellum}) 9... cxd4 {+0.33} (9... cxd4 {cerebellum})
10. Ne2 {+0.31} (10. Ne2 {cerebellum}) 10... a6 $0 {+0.50} ({Better is} 10...Be7 11. a3 Nc6 12. f4 O-O {+0.34 - Brainfish})
11. Ng3 $0 {+0.27} ({Better is} 11. f4 Be7 12. f5 O-O 13. Ng3 {+0.50 - Brainfish}) 11... Bd6 $0 {+0.52} ({Better is} 11...h5 12. a3 Nc6 13. h3 h4 {+0.27 - Brainfish})
12. f4 $1 {+0.58} ({} 12. Qg4 O-O 13. a3 Nc6 14. f4 {+0.52 - Brainfish}) O-O $3 {+0.53}
13. Qf3 $0 {+0.32} ({Better is} 13. e5 Bc7 14. Bd2 Nc6 15. Rc1 {+0.48 - Brainfish}) 13... Kh8 $0 {+0.49} ({Better is} 13...Nc2 14. Rb1 Qb6 15. e5 Bc5 {+0.32 - Brainfish})
14. Bd2 $0 {+0.48} 14... f5 $0 {+0.64} ({Better is} 14...Qb6 {+0.48 - Brainfish})
15. Rae1 $0 {+0.36} ({Better is} 15. a3 Nc2 16. Rac1 Ne3 17. Bxe3 {+0.57 - Brainfish}) 15... Nc6 $0 {+0.55} ({Better is} 15...Qb6 16. Rb1 Bd7 17. Rfc1 a5 {+0.36 - Brainfish})
16. Re2 $0 {+0.40} ({Better is} 16. a3 a5 17. Rc1 Bd7 18. Rc2 {+0.56 - Brainfish}) 16... Qc7 $0 {+0.37} ({} 16...Bd7 17. a3 a5 18. Rc1 Rc8 {+0.36 - Brainfish})
17. exf5 $0 {+0.15} ({Better is} 17. a3 Bd7 18. b4 Rac8 19. exf5 {+0.44 - Brainfish}) exf5 $0 {+0.35}
18. Nh1 $0 {+0.11} ({Better is} 18. a3 Bd7 19. b4 Rac8 20. Rc1 {+0.34 - Brainfish}) Bd7 $5 {+0.13}
19. Nf2 $0 {+0.00} ({} 19. Ng3 {+0.13 - Brainfish}) 19... Rae8 $6 {+0.20} ({Better is} 19...h6 20. Nh1 Rae8 21. Rxe8 Rxe8 {+0.00 - Brainfish})
20. Rfe1 $0 {-0.02} ({Better is} 20. Rxe8 Rxe8 21. Nh3 Be6 22. Bxe6 {+0.20 - Brainfish}) Rxe2 $1 {-0.10}
21. Rxe2 $0 {-0.13} 21... Nd8 $6 {+0.35} ({Better is} 21...h6 22. Qd5 Bxf4 23. Bxf4 Qxf4 {-0.13 - Brainfish})
22. Nh3 $5 {+0.18} 22... Bc6 $2 {+0.82} ({Better is} 22...h6 23. Ng5 Ba4 24. Re1 Bb5 {+0.18 - Brainfish})
23. Qh5 $5 {+0.75} 23... g6 $2 {+1.01} ({Better is} 23...Nf7 24. a3 Bb5 25. Bxb5 g6 {+0.75 - Brainfish})
24. Qh4 $0 {+0.92} 24... Kg7 $0 {+0.93} ({} 24...Bb5 25. Bxb5 axb5 26. Ng5 b6 {+0.92 - Brainfish})
25. Qf2 $5 {+0.94} Bc5 $0 {+0.98}
26. b4 $2 {+0.47} ({Better is} 26. Ng5 b5 27. Re5 Bb7 28. Bb3 {+0.98 - Brainfish}) Bb6 {+3.63} 27. Qh4 $2 {+0.61} ({Excellent is} 27. Qe1 Be4 28. Bb3 Re8 29. dxe4 {+3.63 - Brainfish}) Re8 $0 {+0.81}
28. Re5 $3 {+0.56} 28... Nf7 $4 {+1.58} ({Excellent is} 28...Qd6 29. Ng5 h6 30. Nf3 Qf8 {+0.63 - Brainfish})
29. Bxf7 $5 {+1.49} Qxf7 $0 {+1.45}
30. Ng5 $0 {+1.67} Qg8 $0 {+1.44}
31. Rxe8 $0 {+1.60} Bxe8 {+4.90} 32. Qe1 {+4.24} Bc6 {+8.81}
33. Qe7+ {+8.85} Kh8 {+9.57} 34. b5 {+7.27} Qg7 {+7.03}
35. Qxg7+ {+4.31} Kxg7 {+3.66} 36. bxc6 {+4.12} bxc6 {+4.10}
37. Nf3 {+3.81} c5 {+3.91} 38. Ne5 {+3.99} Bc7 {+3.89}
39. Nc4 {+3.08} Kf7 {+3.12} 40. g3 {+3.09} Bd8 {+3.10}
41. Ba5 {+3.27} Be7 {+3.29} 42. Bc7 {+3.45} Ke6 {+3.24}
43. Nb6 {+3.59} h6 {+4.04} 44. h4 {+4.14} g5 {+5.31}
45. h5 {+4.89} g4 {+5.39} 46. Be5 {+5.98} (-- {WhiteAveError=0.49, BlackAveError=0.31, ratingDiff=42}) 1-0
[/pgn]

Henk
Posts: 5833
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 8:31 am

Re: Chess Artist

Post by Henk » Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:00 am

Nimzowitsch:
1) 5 .. Nc3 is better than Nb4
2) 7 .. a6 better than Nc6
3) 10 .. a6 is good because it prevents Bb5
4) 12 Qg4 better than f2-f4
5) 16 .. Qc7 is not a good move. Better Bd7

Ferdy
Posts: 4113
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:15 pm
Location: Philippines

Re: Chess Artist

Post by Ferdy » Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:28 am

Henk wrote:Nimzowitsch:
1) 5 .. Nc3 is better than Nb4
2) 7 .. a6 better than Nc6
3) 10 .. a6 is good because it prevents Bb5
4) 12 Qg4 better than f2-f4
5) 16 .. Qc7 is not a good move. Better Bd7
4) 12 Qg4 better than f2-f4
12.f4 +0.58
(12.Qg4 +0.52)

12.Qg4 is not better than 12.f4. White is better because the score is positive.

Henk
Posts: 5833
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 8:31 am

Re: Chess Artist

Post by Henk » Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:46 am

Nein. See Mein System page 212

Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:41 am

Re: Chess Artist

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:37 am

Ferdinand made a great tool again, but, until top engines understand that 1.d3 is actually way better than 1.d4 it is pretty much pointless to use engines for making sense of the opening stage.

In positions with concrete threats and developments, where deep and accurate search is of great benefit, engine commentary is indeed very much to the point and appreciated.

Henk
Posts: 5833
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 8:31 am

Re: Chess Artist

Post by Henk » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:34 am

In book comments you also see something like: In the game ... white played .. ... with a slight advantage for black.

I mean comparisons to similar games. But to implement that you need a database of games.

Post Reply