What to play against 1. d4 ?

[whereagles]

1.e4 migth be a draw after 1...c5, while 1.c4 migth be winning.

I can hardly believe that. Pretty confident white cannot win with its 1st move. Even losing is hard (though f3, g4 or Nh3 try hard lol).

[Henk]

1.e4 migth be a draw after 1...c5, while 1.c4 migth be winning.

I can hardly believe that. Pretty confident white cannot win with its 1st move. Even losing is hard (though f3, g4 or Nh3 try hard lol).

f3 and Nh3 are perfectly playable.

[cdani]

Made blunders in time trouble yesterday. And this is a recurrent pattern. So speed is only what counts for me. Finding reasonable moves in short time.

Playing better chess is like making an engine stronger When you start spending hundreds or thousands of hours on it, with some method of course, you can obtain great results.

[Henk]

Also f3 Kf2 is worth an experiment. Play it in an important final of your club. That will learn that chess is for fun.

[Henk]

Using Stockfish 8:

[pgn]

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "?"]
[Round "-"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]

1. f3 e5 2. Kf2 d5 3. e3 d4 4. e4 Be6 5. g3 Qd7 6. Kg2 f5 7. exf5 Bxf5 8.
Bc4 Nf6 9. d3
*
[/pgn]

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

1.e4 migth be a draw after 1...c5, while 1.c4 migth be winning.

I can hardly believe that. Pretty confident white cannot win with its 1st move. Even losing is hard (though f3, g4 or Nh3 try hard lol).

Still, I can not easily find sufficient defence for black after 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.e4 or 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 or 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 d6 3.g3

Engine, including latest SF, see nothing, as lines are very deep and involve tricky eval, but white has considerable advantage, and after some 10-20 moves played SF would agree one way or another white is much better. Without help though engines tend to prune/miss/order low the best white moves.

1.g4 is certainly lost for white, while, as Henk rightly says, 1.f3 is quite playable, possibly also Nh3, I have not investigated that.

1.f3 seems weak and ugly, but, when you add 30cps white edge, and f3 loses 40cps or so, it is almost even. If 1.c4 is the best move and brings about some 30cps or so white advantage, black is almost on the brink of a loss, as the mg bound for a win is only some 40cps or so.

I do not claim there is a winning first move, but that migth also well be the case, will have to wait some 2000-elo-stronger engine...

[whereagles]

huh.. english symmetrical?

[corres]

[quote="Henk"]Maybe only value of studying chess openings is that you play first ten or twenty moves quickly.

What's the value of a slight advantage when bad moves are played later on.

So doesn't matter which opening you play. Anyone is good if it gives a reasonably playable position.[/quote]

I agree with you. But no all reasonably positions are to the taste of a given player. So the selection of opening may be a weapon against partner and/or may be a help to that player.

[corres]

[quote="Lyudmil Tsvetkov"]...., while 1.c4 migth be winning.[/quote]

The only advantage of 1.c4 is that it has a lot of ramification into other opening. With this behavior you can take in your opponent into a position what is detrimental to him. But you ought to know well all variations after 1.c4 otherwise you would be an unpleasant position.

[quote="Lydmil Tsvetkov"]
It is much better to study sound opening/middlegame/endgame principles and evaluation features that are difficult to backfire, and besides, you save yourself a lot of time on cramming.[/quote]

I agree with you.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

huh.. english symmetrical?

does not work, I have checked most of the lines. white plays g3,Bg2,Nge2,0-0,f4, with much earlier and decisive kingside pawn attack.

but, as engines do not understand kingside bishop fianchettoe and pointed larger pawn chains towards the enemy king, they do not understand that either.

in any case, in the mainline, SF score reaches 100cps and above, which almost never happens even in the largely favourable Ruy Lopez after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4

of course, no one can be certain and a lot of things still have to be cleared, but, as of today, I am very much certain 1.c4 is actually the best white first move, similarly as on 1.e5 1...c5 is the best black reply. when you play 1.c4, you are also able to play a pawn to e4, and it is vital to have more central pawns, while after 1.e4 playing a second central pawn is more difficult.