Time to revise modern theory

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Dann Corbit
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Re: Time to revise modern theory

Post by Dann Corbit » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:15 pm

jdart wrote:Due to the nature of the game changes in eval at the leaves of the search tree can change the eval much farther up. And that is why "theory" is always changing.

For example, I have recently been looking at this game:

[pgn]
[Event "EU/TC9/final"]
[Site "ICCF"]
[Date "2014.06.10"]
[Round "?.3"]
[White "Borstnik, Ales"]
[Black "Kupsys, Alfonsas"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C11"]
[WhiteElo "2579"]
[BlackElo "2543"]
[PlyCount "71"]
[EventDate "2014.??.??"]
[WhiteTeam "Slovenia"]
[BlackTeam "Lithuania"]
[WhiteTeamCountry "SLO"]
[BlackTeamCountry "LTU"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4 c5 6. Nf3 Nc6 7. Be3 cxd4 8. Nxd4
Qb6 9. Qd2 Qxb2 10. Rb1 Qa3 11. Bb5 Nxd4 12. Bxd4 a6 13. Bxd7+ Bxd7 14. Rb3 Qe7
15. Rxb7 Rc8 16. O-O Qa3 17. Rfb1 Bc5 18. Ne2 h6 19. f5 exf5 20. h3 Bc6 21.
R7b3 Bxd4+ 22. Nxd4 Qc5 23. Rg3 g5 24. e6 fxe6 25. Rc3 Qa7 26. Qe3 Bd7 27. Rcb3
Qc5 28. Rb7 Rh7 29. Qe5 Kf8 30. R1b6 Kg8 31. Rxe6 Qxd4+ 32. Qxd4 Bxe6 33. Qf6
Bf7 34. Qxa6 Re8 35. a4 g4 36. Qd3 1-0
[/pgn]

Here I think 18. .. h6 is a novelty and it looks like a good one, but after 20. h3! Black is busted. However, actually Black does not appear to have any really adequate moves at move 18 (.. Bb4+ for example gives him a difficult position too), so in fact he should probably deviate earlier. It appears recent games favor 15. .. Qd8, as in Caruana-Robson, US chmp 2016. However, this whole line is very complex. I am quite sure you can't search forward far earlier in the game and get an accurate eval for it.

--Jon
These are the places in that rough area where wrong move choices may have been made by black. By the last one, it may already be too late:

[d]r1bqkb1r/pp1n1ppp/2n1p3/3pP3/3N1P2/2N1B3/PPP3PP/R2QKB1R b KQkq - acd 39; acs 7200; bm Bc5; c3 "Qb6"; move# 08b; cce -65; ce -17; pm Bc5 {4495} Qb6 {357} Nxd4 {207} Bb4 {99} a6 {44} Be7 {33} Nc5 {30} Nb6 {22} Qa5 {4} g6 {2} Qc7 {1} g5 {1}; pv Bc5 Qd2 O-O Be2 a6 Bf3 Nxd4 Bxd4 Bxd4 Qxd4 b5 O-O Rb8 Ne2 b4 Qe3 a5 Nd4 Qb6 Rfb1 Qc5 Re1 Qb6 Rac1 Bb7 Rb1 Rfc8 c3 Ba6 cxb4 axb4 f5 Re8 Rbd1 exf5 Nxf5 Rxe5 Qxb6 Rxe1+ Kf2 Nxb6 Rxe1 Nc4 Bxd5; white_wins 1963; black_wins 1285; draws 1413;

[d]r3kb1r/1R1bqppp/p3p3/3pP3/3B1P2/2N5/P1PQ2PP/4K2R b Kkq - acd 46; acs 7200; bm Qh4+; c3 "Rc8"; move# 15b; ce -29; pm Qh4+; pv Qh4+ Bf2;

[d]2r1kb1r/1R1bqppp/p3p3/3pP3/3B1P2/2N5/P1PQ2PP/5RK1 b k - acd 48; acs 7200; bm Qd8; c3 "Qa3"; move# 16b; ce -27; pm Qd8; pv Qd8 f5;

[d]2r1k2r/1R1b1ppp/p3p3/2bpP3/3B1P2/q7/P1PQN1PP/1R4K1 b k - acd 47; acs 7200; bm Bxd4+; c3 "h6"; move# 18b; ce -43; pm Bxd4+; pv Bxd4+ Nxd4 Rc4 f5 exf5 e6 fxe6 Rb8+ Rc8 Rxc8+ Bxc8 Nxe6 Qd6 Nxg7+ Kf7 Nh5 Re8 Nf4 d4 Ne2 Re4 Rd1 Bb7 Ng3 Rf4 h3 d3 Qxd3 Qxd3 Rxd3 Bc8 Rc3 Bd7 Rc7 Ke6 Ra7 Ra4 Nxf5 Bc6 g4 Be4 Rxh7 Bxf5 Rh6+ Kf7 gxf5 Rxa2 Rc6 Ra5 f6 Rh5 Kg2 a5 Ra6 Rc5 Kg3 Rxc2 h4 Rc3+ Kf4 a4 h5 a3;
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whereagles
Posts: 565
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Re: Time to revise modern theory

Post by whereagles » Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:19 pm

rainhaus wrote: There was no analysis at all. It was an artfully staged April Fool's joke by ChessBase with the friendly support of Vasik Rajlich and many readers were duped by this hoax.
ahah! looool.. they got me, allright :lol:

but the question still holds: we need an analysis on the KGA :D

Henk
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Re: Time to revise modern theory

Post by Henk » Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:23 am

whereagles wrote:
rainhaus wrote: There was no analysis at all. It was an artfully staged April Fool's joke by ChessBase with the friendly support of Vasik Rajlich and many readers were duped by this hoax.
ahah! looool.. they got me, allright :lol:

but the question still holds: we need an analysis on the KGA :D
Why are there so many April Fool's jokes on this website while it is November ? Do we need to become even more critical ? No valid proof no acceptance.

rainhaus
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Re: Time to revise modern theory

Post by rainhaus » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:19 pm

Henk van den Belt wrote:
Why are there so many April Fool's jokes on this website while it is November ?


One single april joke, cited in November, is just about tolerable, IMHO. Should it grow into habit, sanctions are needed, fully clear. In such a case I would suggest some kind of virtual water guns.. Furthermore, I would like to bring it to the attention of the well-disposed reader that my apologies had already been made. I may quote:
"Sorry for exhuming this old joke, but in view of your question and the megalomaniac context of this thread I couldn't resist."

I'm thinking now on an additional post to get even more clearly the context of an April Fool's joke with the outlined disaster of the current opening theory.

Henk van den Belt wrote:
Do we need to become even more critical ? No valid proof no acceptance.


Well roared, that cannot be emphasised enough, even someone is speaking in the plural about himself.
I have a pearl of wisdom too: Who reads carefully saves much time to himself and to others.
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corres
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Re: Time to revise modern theory

Post by corres » Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:38 am

[quote="drj4759"]
The middle game is where the action and excitement is because it is not yet fully understood by engine developers.
[/quote]

I think developers of engines have to understood the programming well and the experiments of making engines earlier. To be a strong GM and to be a good programmer this is too much for one people.


[quote="drj4759"]
Cerebellum energized some opening book makers to make good opening books. Maybe with their synergy and absorbing the best opening lines from each book, a near perfect opening book will soon appear in the future. When this will come to pass, the next stage will be extending the opening lines into the middle game and even the endgame.
[/quote]

What do you think how many Gigabytes would be that "near perfect opening book"? An endgame database for only 6 men is some tens Gigabytes.

[quote="drj4759"]
..... No more need for endgame databases.
[/quote]

There are lot of middle game positions what can be decided in the phase of endgame only.

[quote="drj4759"]
Chess is solved...
[/quote]

You are very optimistic, are not you?
I should be very sad at that time.

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