Fire 5 is out!

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tpoppins
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Location: upstate

Re: Fire 5 is out!

Post by tpoppins » Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:01 am

Hasn't this OT mud-slinging gibberish gone on long enough?

Norman, just ping a moderator to split this thread. If Sr Velasco insists on making a fool of himself he can continue doing it in the Engine Origins forum just as well as here.

Jose, con respecto a "damage to my person": ¿no hay en español un dicho como "Si vives en una casa de vitrio no tiras piedras a los vesinos"?

rainhaus
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Re: Fire 5 is out!

Post by rainhaus » Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:19 am

velmarin wrote:
Alexander Schmidt wrote:
You put things false and that do not belong to this forum.
you defined what is...
You demonstrated by that acts as well...

You demonstrate that in this thread just want to do damage to my person.
Your opinion is irrelevant.
I guess, your translator isn't the best one. In this way missunderstandings and wrong interpretations are preprogrammed. I really understand no more than half of what you want to say.

Nobody should hurt another person. But for keeping the matter it is required that everybody understands exactly what the other is saying. Otherwise you hear and you talk too personal and too emotionally. Especially in this highly difficult and complex matter.

Relax and make a calm and restful break. And consider this, the truth often finds its own way out, soon or later.

http://es-en.dict.cc/?s=
https://translate.google.com/#de/es^
http://uebersetzung.babylon-software.co ... /englisch/
http://translate.reference.com/
http://www.online-translator.com/
http://www.reverso.net/text_translation.aspx?lang=EN
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BrendanJNorman
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Re: Fire 5 is out!

Post by BrendanJNorman » Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:41 am

Right.

As a relative newcomer to this forum, I get tired of seeing so much bitterness and negativity around a passion we all share.

Even when searching for the ancient engines which I'm more fond of (Thinker, Frenzee, etc) I see people back in 2008 throwing stones at each other and accusing each other of stealing "code".

Unless someone is charging money for it without adding something new (I DO like Vitruvius for example) which brings to rise a moral/legal issue, who cares who borrows ideas from whom.

How ridiculous would it be to accuse a scientist or doctor of "stealing ideas"?

Only chessplayers (with our inherent terrible social skills) can be this petty.

WHO CARES where Fire 5 is derived from or if it is original and if the author says it IS original, he is innocent until proven guilty.

Fire 5 a great engine capable of coming up with beautiful ideas in analysis...

That's all a real chesslover needs.

Perhaps it's a good idea to introduce rules in this forum for unproven accusations and bans for over-abuse?

:x

Modern Times
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Re: Fire 5 is out!

Post by Modern Times » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:55 am

What a refreshing post, and I completely agree.
.

Opinions expressed here are my own, and not necessarily those of the CCRL Group.

Alexander Schmidt
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Re: Fire 5 is out!

Post by Alexander Schmidt » Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:10 am

velmarin wrote:You put things false and that do not belong to this forum.
you defined what is...
You demonstrated by that acts as well...

You demonstrate that in this thread just want to do damage to my person.
Your opinion is irrelevant.
You damage yourself. And as long as you do false accusations in this forum people will answer in this forum. It don't belong here, that's right. So why did you start this topic here?

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Guenther
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Re: Fire 5 is out!

Post by Guenther » Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:40 am

BrendanJNorman wrote:
accusing each other of stealing "code".
Probably you don't realize that you compare apples and oranges?
This happens so often by non-programmers. No one argues about ideas.
BrendanJNorman wrote: How ridiculous would it be to accuse a scientist or doctor of "stealing ideas"?

BrendanJNorman
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Re: Fire 5 is out!

Post by BrendanJNorman » Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:32 am

Guenther wrote:
BrendanJNorman wrote:
accusing each other of stealing "code".
Probably you don't realize that you compare apples and oranges?
This happens so often by non-programmers. No one argues about ideas.
BrendanJNorman wrote: How ridiculous would it be to accuse a scientist or doctor of "stealing ideas"?
There are legal ways of protecting intellectual property if this is such a thing to become angry about and to justify attacking others.

If protecting the intellectual property legally isn't necessary, then neither is attacking/labelling/insulting/accusing others.

Doesn't matter if I'm a programmer or not, it's a matter of logic and being civilized while still lacking unquestionable proof, no? :)

Even if I were a programmer, if somebody "stole" my code, as long as it wasn't used commercially, what's to cry about?

It's a compliment for somebody to imply to you "I cannot do this as well as you, therefore I need to use yours".

Guys like the Synapze folks are worthy of scorn because they took another person's work and made money from it, but even this scorn is merely our moral judgement.

The code it was based on wasn't protected by any legal structures, right?

Therefore, it's fair game...

If you really want to protect your intellectual capital, you can't rely on a moral agreement in the "community", you have to do it legally or shut up.

This is the real world guys.

And this is coming from a person who lives in China, seeing I.P being stolen daily.

Dokterchen
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Re: Fire 5 is out!

Post by Dokterchen » Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:04 am

BrendanJNorman wrote:Right.

As a relative newcomer to this forum, I get tired of seeing so much bitterness and negativity around a passion we all share.

Even when searching for the ancient engines which I'm more fond of (Thinker, Frenzee, etc) I see people back in 2008 throwing stones at each other and accusing each other of stealing "code".

Unless someone is charging money for it without adding something new (I DO like Vitruvius for example) which brings to rise a moral/legal issue, who cares who borrows ideas from whom.

How ridiculous would it be to accuse a scientist or doctor of "stealing ideas"?


:x
Obviously you are a non-programmer and you don’t know the difference between clone, derivative and taken ideas. Let me try to explain it.

Example: the Mercedes formula one car from Nico Rosberg.

Clone: just steal the car, paint it in another color and participate in the next formula one grand prix with “your” car.

Derivative: take the Mercedes formula one car from Nico Rosberg and try to modify it to make it faster. But you are not in expert in engineering a formula one car and at Mercedes several hundreds people are working at the formula one car to make it faster. So you will have a big chance to make the car SLOWER (a chess program weaker).

taken ideas: today it is not a secret how to design a car. But the way form that theoretical knowledge to a physical formula one car is gigantic.

Please excuse my horrible English.

KR
Torsten

Alexander Schmidt
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Re: Fire 5 is out!

Post by Alexander Schmidt » Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:05 am

BrendanJNorman wrote:Even if I were a programmer, if somebody "stole" my code, as long as it wasn't used commercially, what's to cry about?
Some people believe that "Open Source" is the best way to bring something forward, Stockfish and earlier Fruit and Crafty are the best examples for the benefit of the whole chess community. This system only works as long as programmers respect the copyright rules and share their improvements.

Beside that: Don't you feel fooled if you waste your time and resources in testing engines that turn out to be a simple copy of something else you already tested?

Frank Quisinsky
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Re: What for a bullshit clone discussion!

Post by Frank Quisinsky » Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:07 am

Code: Select all

  24 RobboLito 0.09 x64             2922   16   15  1640   71%  2752   36% 
  86 Stockfish 1.5.1 JA w32         2728   18   18  1000   59%  2672   43%
 148 Glaurung 2.2 JA w32            2613   16   17  1260   37%  2699   36%
At the time Norman is working in clearing Igorit sources to a readable code he added a lot of own endgame knowledge. After all I understand the problem with Igorit sources at first ... the endgame knowledge missed to big parts, not readable with italian comments nobody understand.

At this time Stockfish 1.5.1 are available. The successor of Glaurung and SF version 1.51 are around 200-300 weaker in endgames as the RobboLite or first unsable IPP engines.

So we have to look on the Stockfish interview:
In English language available:

http://www.schach-welt.de/schach/comput ... stalba-eng

1. Tord tell us ... Glaurung have no endgame knowledge
2. Mark tell us ... all ideas in chess programming are good known

In my opinion ... fantastic information to read in that interview! A very important interview for computer chess.

Now I read her Fire is a clone of Stockfish??

From which parts all the Stockfish programmers have suddenly all the endgame knowledge? Easy, all ideas in chess programming are good known. And after Fire 5 is out ... again the same spectacle by same persons which have a problem with the work Norman do in the past.

Next one:
Fire 2.2 sources are free available.
In Fire 4 Norman clean itself the code.
He do enough with free sources. I can understand that he lost his interest to give again and again his good ideas!

I am not a programmer but in style of Fire ... move stats ... analyses and comparing with others ... I can nothing see that Fire is a clone of Stockfish or an other engine. More clone of IPP is in my opinion Equinox and GullChess versions (if I comparing with my move stats and if I compare with test-positions the Analysis). Newer equinox Versions are OK in my opinion.

Fully bullshit ... Fire is a copy of Stockfish.
I think a claim by persons have not other things to do and in his brain as to added nonsense here. A comeback if the chance is possible to do that again and again.

I am very happy with Fire and the work Norman do.

In my opinion one of the most talented programmer we have ... and again ... we lost enough good programmers in the past. Different lost the interest with all the clone discussion.

Enough is enough!

The knowledge available today is in most of cases that what programmers give us in the last 40 years. Today the programmer try to make it better again and again (nice example the work the Stockfish Team do). We are on the right way today ... and don't need spectaculare clone discussion.

Time is over for it!

Best
Frank
I like computer chess!

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