A position almost every engine gets wrong

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderators: hgm, Dann Corbit, Harvey Williamson

Forum rules
This textbox is used to restore diagrams posted with the [d] tag before the upgrade.
User avatar
MikeB
Posts: 4628
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:34 am
Location: Pen Argyl, Pennsylvania

A position almost every engine gets wrong

Post by MikeB » Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:22 am

[d]3k4/K2Q4/8/8/8/8/8/8 b - - 0 1

There is no legal move...

applicable FIDE rule :5.2b

Code: Select all

"The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the position was in accordance with Article 3 and Articles 4.2 – 4.7."
I'm not sure if any engine gets it right, but I doubt it.

Dann Corbit
Posts: 12034
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA
Contact:

Re: A position almost every engine gets wrong

Post by Dann Corbit » Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:27 am

MikeB wrote:[d]3k4/K2Q4/8/8/8/8/8/8 b - - 0 1

There is no legal move...

applicable FIDE rule :5.2b

Code: Select all

"The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the position was in accordance with Article 3 and Articles 4.2 – 4.7."
I'm not sure if any engine gets it right, but I doubt it.
Even so, the game will end in a draw if black illegally captures the queen.
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.

tpoppins
Posts: 919
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:11 pm
Location: upstate

Re: A position almost every engine gets wrong

Post by tpoppins » Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:11 am

MikeB wrote:I'm not sure if any engine gets it right
Who cares? The smart way to go about it is to let Cutechess with Gaviota TBs adjudicate it.

:)

Joerg Oster
Posts: 815
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:29 pm
Location: Germany

Re: A position almost every engine gets wrong

Post by Joerg Oster » Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:42 am

MikeB wrote:[d]3k4/K2Q4/8/8/8/8/8/8 b - - 0 1

There is no legal move...

applicable FIDE rule :5.2b

Code: Select all

"The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the position was in accordance with Article 3 and Articles 4.2 – 4.7."
I'm not sure if any engine gets it right, but I doubt it.
I fail to see what's wrong with Kxd7 and draw by insufficient mating material.
Jörg Oster

Uri Blass
Posts: 8944
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: A position almost every engine gets wrong

Post by Uri Blass » Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:58 am

MikeB wrote:[d]3k4/K2Q4/8/8/8/8/8/8 b - - 0 1

There is no legal move...

applicable FIDE rule :5.2b

Code: Select all

"The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the position was in accordance with Article 3 and Articles 4.2 – 4.7."
I'm not sure if any engine gets it right, but I doubt it.
I agree that the game is finished but I do not agree that there is no legal move.

If I agree to your conclusion it means that white won this game.

From the fide rules:

1.2
"The objective of each player is to place the opponent’s king ‘under attack’ in such a way that the opponent has no legal move. The player who achieves this goal is said to have ‘checkmated’ the opponent’s king and to have won the game."

User avatar
Evert
Posts: 2929
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:42 pm
Location: NL
Contact:

Re: A position almost every engine gets wrong

Post by Evert » Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:51 am

Joerg Oster wrote: I fail to see what's wrong with Kxd7 and draw by insufficient mating material.
It's subtle:
The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’.
The implication is that the game is already a draw in the given position, since no sequence of legal moves will result in checkmate. This ends the game immediately. Since the game has ended, there are no moves to be played.

Reading it this way is technically "rules as written", but almost certainly not "rules as intended".

Uri Blass
Posts: 8944
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: A position almost every engine gets wrong

Post by Uri Blass » Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:59 am

Evert wrote:
Joerg Oster wrote: I fail to see what's wrong with Kxd7 and draw by insufficient mating material.
It's subtle:
The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’.
The implication is that the game is already a draw in the given position, since no sequence of legal moves will result in checkmate. This ends the game immediately. Since the game has ended, there are no moves to be played.

Reading it this way is technically "rules as written", but almost certainly not "rules as intended".
The last claim that since the game has ended there are no moves to be played is wrong.

There is no problem with playing legal moves even in K vs K and they will not change the result of the game. Of course if the arbiter see it then the arbiter is going to stop the game and say it is a draw.

User avatar
MikeB
Posts: 4628
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:34 am
Location: Pen Argyl, Pennsylvania

Re: A position almost every engine gets wrong

Post by MikeB » Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:59 am

Joerg Oster wrote:
MikeB wrote:[d]3k4/K2Q4/8/8/8/8/8/8 b - - 0 1

There is no legal move...

applicable FIDE rule :5.2b

Code: Select all

"The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the position was in accordance with Article 3 and Articles 4.2 – 4.7."
I'm not sure if any engine gets it right, but I doubt it.
I fail to see what's wrong with Kxd7 and draw by insufficient mating material.
Technically, per the FIDE rule stated, the game was already over as the game was already in a dead position, i.e., neither player can checkmate the opponents king with any series of of legal moves, since black's only move is to capture the Q and there is no possible checkmate , the game is already over without taking the Q.

Joerg Oster
Posts: 815
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:29 pm
Location: Germany

Re: A position almost every engine gets wrong

Post by Joerg Oster » Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:18 am

Evert wrote:
Joerg Oster wrote: I fail to see what's wrong with Kxd7 and draw by insufficient mating material.
It's subtle:
The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’.
The implication is that the game is already a draw in the given position, since no sequence of legal moves will result in checkmate. This ends the game immediately. Since the game has ended, there are no moves to be played.

Reading it this way is technically "rules as written", but almost certainly not "rules as intended".
Yes, understood.

But how do you know in the above position that it is NOT checkmate? :lol:

For me this rule clearly implies that neither side must be in check ...
This rule simply doesn't apply here.

And the claim by the OP that there is no legal move, is simply wrong.
Jörg Oster

BeyondCritics
Posts: 378
Joined: Sat May 05, 2012 12:48 pm
Location: Bergheim

Re: A position almost every engine gets wrong

Post by BeyondCritics » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:38 am

MikeB wrote:[d]3k4/K2Q4/8/8/8/8/8/8 b - - 0 1

There is no legal move...

applicable FIDE rule :5.2b

Code: Select all

"The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the position was in accordance with Article 3 and Articles 4.2 – 4.7."
I'm not sure if any engine gets it right, but I doubt it.
Good one.
The conclusion here is, according to the rules shown, that Qd7+ "immediately ends the game" with a draw.
In FIDE chess, it is irrelevant, what happens after the end of the game. Therefore "Kxd7" is neither legal nor illegal, it is simply something that is not considered.
E.g. black could claim a draw, even if he was flagged, before he could do anything. He could resign, that would be irrelevant also.

Post Reply