A position almost every engine gets wrong

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Joerg Oster
Posts: 815
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:29 pm
Location: Germany

Re: A position almost every engine gets wrong

Post by Joerg Oster » Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:32 am

MikeB wrote:
Joerg Oster wrote:
MikeB wrote:[d]3k4/K2Q4/8/8/8/8/8/8 b - - 0 1

There is no legal move...

applicable FIDE rule :5.2b

Code: Select all

"The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the position was in accordance with Article 3 and Articles 4.2 – 4.7."
I'm not sure if any engine gets it right, but I doubt it.
I fail to see what's wrong with Kxd7 and draw by insufficient mating material.
Technically, per the FIDE rule stated, the game was already over as the game was already in a dead position, i.e., neither player can checkmate the opponents king with any series of of legal moves, since black's only move is to capture the Q and there is no possible checkmate , the game is already over without taking the Q.
I fully understand your reasoning, but do you really think applying a draw rule while one side being in check makes sense at all?
This is clearly no 'dead' position.

After the queen capture though, the rule fully applies.
Jörg Oster

BeyondCritics
Posts: 380
Joined: Sat May 05, 2012 12:48 pm
Location: Bergheim

Re: A position almost every engine gets wrong

Post by BeyondCritics » Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:40 am

Joerg Oster wrote:
MikeB wrote:
Joerg Oster wrote:
MikeB wrote:[d]3k4/K2Q4/8/8/8/8/8/8 b - - 0 1

There is no legal move...

applicable FIDE rule :5.2b

Code: Select all

"The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the position was in accordance with Article 3 and Articles 4.2 – 4.7."
I'm not sure if any engine gets it right, but I doubt it.
I fail to see what's wrong with Kxd7 and draw by insufficient mating material.
Technically, per the FIDE rule stated, the game was already over as the game was already in a dead position, i.e., neither player can checkmate the opponents king with any series of of legal moves, since black's only move is to capture the Q and there is no possible checkmate , the game is already over without taking the Q.
I fully understand your reasoning, but do you really think applying a draw rule while one side being in check makes sense at all?
This is clearly no 'dead' position.

After the queen capture though, the rule fully applies.
I agree, i am somewhat doubtful about this rule. Rules should be simple to explain and simple to check, even in the heat of the battle.
But from my personal experience, "sensible" rules are very well received among chess players, expecially during blitz tournaments. I believe, most players are happy with this rule.

Colin-G
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:30 pm
Location: England

Re: A position almost every engine gets wrong

Post by Colin-G » Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:58 am

[d]3k4/K2Q4/8/8/8/8/8/8 b - - 0 1
A human player, and possibly some engines, could make a draw offer after they played Qxd7, thus ending the game at the position shown, or it could be ended there by the 50 move draw rule.
If the 50 move rule did not apply, it would presumably have been a black queen on d7 before, or White would not have moved to that square.

Uri Blass
Posts: 8950
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:37 pm
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: A position almost every engine gets wrong

Post by Uri Blass » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:32 pm

Joerg Oster wrote:
MikeB wrote:
Joerg Oster wrote:
MikeB wrote:[d]3k4/K2Q4/8/8/8/8/8/8 b - - 0 1

There is no legal move...

applicable FIDE rule :5.2b

Code: Select all

"The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the position was in accordance with Article 3 and Articles 4.2 – 4.7."
I'm not sure if any engine gets it right, but I doubt it.
I fail to see what's wrong with Kxd7 and draw by insufficient mating material.
Technically, per the FIDE rule stated, the game was already over as the game was already in a dead position, i.e., neither player can checkmate the opponents king with any series of of legal moves, since black's only move is to capture the Q and there is no possible checkmate , the game is already over without taking the Q.
I fully understand your reasoning, but do you really think applying a draw rule while one side being in check makes sense at all?
This is clearly no 'dead' position.

After the queen capture though, the rule fully applies.
If black lose on time it is still a draw and the fact that one side is in check is totally irrelevant.

Joerg Oster
Posts: 815
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:29 pm
Location: Germany

Re: A position almost every engine gets wrong

Post by Joerg Oster » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:51 pm

Uri Blass wrote:
Joerg Oster wrote:
MikeB wrote:
Joerg Oster wrote:
MikeB wrote:[d]3k4/K2Q4/8/8/8/8/8/8 b - - 0 1

There is no legal move...

applicable FIDE rule :5.2b

Code: Select all

"The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the position was in accordance with Article 3 and Articles 4.2 – 4.7."
I'm not sure if any engine gets it right, but I doubt it.
I fail to see what's wrong with Kxd7 and draw by insufficient mating material.
Technically, per the FIDE rule stated, the game was already over as the game was already in a dead position, i.e., neither player can checkmate the opponents king with any series of of legal moves, since black's only move is to capture the Q and there is no possible checkmate , the game is already over without taking the Q.
I fully understand your reasoning, but do you really think applying a draw rule while one side being in check makes sense at all?
This is clearly no 'dead' position.

After the queen capture though, the rule fully applies.
If black lose on time it is still a draw and the fact that one side is in check is totally irrelevant.
Yes, and I never said otherwise.
Jörg Oster

elpapa
Posts: 205
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sweden
Full name: Patrik Karlsson

Re: A position almost every engine gets wrong

Post by elpapa » Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:16 pm

MikeB wrote:[d]3k4/K2Q4/8/8/8/8/8/8 b - - 0 1

There is no legal move...

applicable FIDE rule :5.2b

Code: Select all

"The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the position was in accordance with Article 3 and Articles 4.2 – 4.7."
I'm not sure if any engine gets it right, but I doubt it.
More importantly, do GUIs get it? Otherwise it's probably a bad idea implementing it in your engine. What would happen if you refuse to make a move here?

User avatar
MikeB
Posts: 4647
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:34 am
Location: Pen Argyl, Pennsylvania

Re: A position almost every engine gets wrong

Post by MikeB » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:20 pm

MikeB wrote:[d]3k4/K2Q4/8/8/8/8/8/8 b - - 0 1

There is no legal move...

applicable FIDE rule :5.2b

Code: Select all

"The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent’s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a ‘dead position’. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the position was in accordance with Article 3 and Articles 4.2 – 4.7."
I'm not sure if any engine gets it right, but I doubt it.
Interesting discussion and I'm sure most of you thought I wasted your time, which I probably did. What motivated me to throw this up here is that I found this website where somebody is going around looking for "illegal" moves and is actually tracking them:

https://wismuth.com/chess/illegal-moves.html

just like my "illegal" move example -- the result doesn't change, it's hard for me to understand what's the point , and it sounds like most of you had the same reaction...

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