DEEP SYNAPZE

[jefk]

[quote="Amateur"]The Synapse RZ6 version is compiled IN DATE 2016-06-13 19:36:52 is stronger than Stockfish 8! These are the hard evidence [/quote]

as simple 'user' i see the 'default' option in this engine for 'nullmove
pruning' switched *off*; maybe this is the secret for this clone/derivative ?

yet i doubt it will work for fast blitz games.

[Guenther]

... usual babbling

Thanks, after your post I already won 20€ from a bet with a fellow CCC member, because my bet was that at least one of those 'accounts' (array below) would applaud the justification of known clones in this thread:

Code: Select all

{'Anil', 'Distel', 'Desevac', 'Broussard'}

A pity did not add a multiplier to the bet, because already two of the list jumped in ;-)

@B.N.: did it occur ever to you that some users would like to know with what they are wasting electricity? What sense is in playing SF vs. fake SF or SF vs. fake SF with tiny Ippo roots or Komodo vs. fake Komodo?

[Guenther]

Again, a very good post, which tries to address fairly and in an unbiased manner, different viewpoints .

Thanks, this was my intention.

Don't worry about it, you have to read between the lines.

I don't know how I got on the wrong side of Guenther Simon, but his words to me "Well, now we know where you stand, but I had no doubt of it before... " reveal that his perspective was unfortunately formed from confirmation bias (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias), so there is no need to read anything carefully.

There is no need to ask if anything I said is fair, or true or reasonable.

Confirmation bias means "look for what you want to see, find evidence (whether real or imagined) and wrap it around your preferred narrative"

To be clear...

I do not excuse, nor tolerate stealing code (or anything) and anybody doing so (especially without making improvements as in the case with Vitruvius) and, basically placing their name on unchanged code is a fool.

My assertion was that this is not a basis for making moral judgements on the engine USER.

If a chess enthusiastic wants to try out Synapze or even a ridiculous clone like Ultron, it's up to them and not dishonest (or "supporting" dishonesty in any way.)

If somebody stole my computer (which I use to make a living), I'd be pretty silly to blame anybody for the theft, but the thief.

I don't think my assertion was ambiguous in any way.

Guenther's response to you is probably related to a post you made about Fire 5.

There more than one type of user in CCC. The viewpoint that you have been espousing in this thread is of the USER: a person who does not really give a damn about the computer chess community and whose only concern is what he/she can take from it. I am not claiming that this describes you, but you are claiming there is justification for this point of view.

If you knowingly receive stolen goods, does that not make a statement about your moral character?
If you choose to ignore signs that something may have been stolen, does that make receiving the item okay?

Thanks for your reasoning. I must say I even shudder to ask where he bought e.g. the commercial Ktulu or Shredder (and some others) versions he is toying with.

The whole myth of 'witchhunting' which is used by some people is very annoying. You know why? Each and every 'witch' mentioned in this
forum really was a 'witch' to stay with the metaphor.
One should know that people here don't shoot lightheartedly at programs and call them clones/illegal derivates or highly suspicious - it doesn't work like this.
It seems there is much more 'witchhunting' from the 'other side', because even if those are just a dozen of people they have the tendency to defame others, often with foul language and by other means.

The only case which was not black/white, but controversial (at least for me) was the Rybka case, but even here there is enough evidence that something was not correct in the beginning.
Yet I confess I am not happy about the heavy punishment it received, because others who did much worse are still celebrated, despite a history full of proven (and even commercial) clones,
not once, not twice, not thrice but even more times.

EOF - it's no fun to write that lines...

[Guenther]

Mostly a bunch of narrow-minded Bigots here, who are unable to appreciate any viewpoint which is even slightly different from their own. In fact, I sometimes wonder how some of these guys get along with people in their real lives (if any ! ).

This post coming from YOU made my day. It will be nominated for an oscar
in comedy, or was it called distorted reality perception?

[Stan Arts]

But please, spare me another suada in exegetical length.

Such a mentality needs a lot of sugar coating.

[Dann Corbit]

My post was dealing in generalities about the chess community.
I think Adam Hair already made clarification of the concept I was after.

[mjlef]

This one has no open source, and they disguise what they do.

Who carez ? Very strong Engine, easily beats Stockfish, Komodo and Houdini !

Honest people care. Honest people do not steal and take credit for the works of others.

Different paradigms.

Our friend from India is speaking from the perspective of an engine USER, rather than that of a programmer.

From the perspective of the user, it doesn't matter the origin of the engine, as long as it it either strong, or plays in an attractive way.

Programmers on the other hand, have their own special world which others don't see into, which has its own unwritten rules, code of ethics, cliques and politics.

This difference in paradigm is often the root of disagreement on this forum and even myself, I speak from the perspective of the user, despite understanding the concerns of the programmers.

Despite greatly admiring tons of engine programmers, I have been disappointed to see (even going back years into the archives), how much naming, shaming and accusations of "stealing/cloning/deriving/borrowing/reverse engineering" or whatever, BEFORE even having conclusive proof.

In the real world, you could be sued for defamation for this "guilty until proven innocent" reputation attacking, yet lots of computer chess guys do it and then jump on their moral high-horse about how someone "stole" something.

You know a reputation can also be stolen.


- One destroys another's reputation (or attempts to) with inconclusive proof

- The other uses another's intellectual property without permission/giving attribution.

Again, as a person looking from outside of the programming world, I'd suggest that expecting consistent moral purity from all people, regardless of their culture, background or character, is naive.

I'm reminded of this daily as a person from a western country, living in China - our "morals" mean nothing to some others and we need to be smarter and more assertive.

- Has there been created an independent and neutral computer chess authoritative body/court?

If not, that's a good idea. And this body needs endorsement from ChessBase, Convekta and all of the engine authors.

This body needs to have legal (at least loosely) authority on computer chess matters.

A panel will study engines which have been deemed as suspicious and go through a thorough audit process.

Only after this, can an accusation be made.

Public accusations before this should be deemed just as immoral as the theft itself.

Once this organization is in place (or even before), programmers should protect their source code legally and register it with an I.P lawyer.

If they are suspicious that somebody has stolen their code, they can submit their engine and the suspected copycat engine to the panel for judgement.

If found guilty, they have plenty of ammo to sue the offender, especially if said offender made the work a commercial project.

On the other hand...

I don't think the end-user is morally questionable or dishonest for using a cloned-engine at all. I think it's unfair to assert this.

The end user can do whatever he wants, it's up to the programmer to protect his asset.

If I buy a DVD collection very cheaply on eBay and it turns out to be a pirated version, it's not my fault.

The owner of the I.P needs to do something about this.

Besides, I strongly suspect that about 90% or more of the top guys "borrow" from each other now.

And then they attack each other for it. It's crazy.

I've read cloning accusations against Houdini, Thinker, Rybka, Loop, Naum, Strelka, Fire, Fizbo, Critter etc.

I don't know who stole code and as mentioned, as a user, I don't care...

I like Thinker, Houdini (5), Strelka (5 lol), Vitruvius, Saros, Mars, Toga, Fire and tons of others.

It's not my concern, nor my responsibility where they came from.

Stealing code is bad, but there are much worse problems in the world.

Honestly, this issue is a programmer's problem to solve, whether moral or legal, and I'm sure there's a solution some place.

I would never accuse anyone of stealing without conclusive proof. Previous versions of "Synapse" were really Gull, Stockfish or Komodo. I have no idea what this specific version is, nor will risk infecting my computers with it. The people behind Synapse are simply thieves who steal other programs and do things like put a simple UCI wrapper around them. This just slows the program down a little and makes it inferior to the original.

They will go away once people start ignoring them.

[mjlef]

There are hundreds of clones around, but why tempers are heated only versus Synapse? the answer is that Synapse is stronger than any engine which is accused of clone! with this policy YOU HAVE obscured one of the few able to decompile Komodo, Houdini and others closed sources. Check whether the versions of Synapse has been compiled on the same dates as the original (including komodo) of which he is accused of being a simple clone. The Synapse RZ6 version is compiled IN DATE 2016-06-13 19:36:52 is stronger than Stockfish 8! These are the hard evidence does ,not words THROW to the wind!

Compile dates are not proof of anything. Change the date on your computer then compile and it can have any date you want. Or simply change the date that shows the date.

The Synapse guys do not need source code. They just put a UCI wrapper around any UCI program and can make it say anything they want. They just embed the stolen program in the exe. They contribute nothing to computer chess. They just steal and claim false credit. You are smarter than to fall for this junk.

[velmarin]

We do a perft in console mode.

An image.

[jpqy]

Jose..it's just a asmFish when you compair..

JP.